RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar

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Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

I agree on that. Guitars are no pieces of art... They are just tools.

But this Montoya tool, is a historical tool.

My grandma is older than that guitar doit...we ain't talking dinosaur bones here!

Further, you fail to understand that this guitar IS in a museum...a very specialized one, not a dorky public one. I made a special effort to go there, and perhaps only because I know the person in charge personally I got my hands on that instrument. It is not like people off the street walk in and say "hand over the montoya tool".

But I do admit I loved playing it and making people like you upset!!!!

To be realistic, the guitar passed hands so its not like a direct connection to Monotya, we don't know what was recorded or not with it, what damage was done by montoya himself vs the successive owners etc. You want to examine it and scrap off some DNA to learn what is montoya on the neck he MIGHT let you if you were a lot nicer

So the guy IS special that has this museum for fact he does care for each instrument, he CAN play them, and repair or whatever, he is an expert on guitars WAY beyond you or myself, and honestly nobody except us flamenco nerds even CARE about this guitar. Imagine it in the met next to segovia guitar....nobody would know the difference.

Anyway, my experience in there was amazing. From the moment you walk in you smell the wood, and even in the workshop in the back there is no synthetic workshop smell, only wood. They only french polish guitars, no toxic spray etc in there. So the first guitar I played was Richard's son Marshal's guitar. A blanca pieced together from scrap wood. Despite it's looks, the play and sound was equal to about anything else there.

I don't think I can remember all the dates because of so many instruments but of the museum collection (vs the guitars for sale or in need of repair work in a different display case), and I had lots going on since then, here are some thoughts.

The older guitar was from 1800's I played. The same as in the JS seargant painting "Jaleo", a thin body small sized blanca...but the neck was normal peg head. I was not any weaker in sound than modern guitars, but maybe less bassy.

Esteso of Montoya= pretty normal feeling guitar with a good action, not too low. Some damage on the top between tap plate, sound was not much different than other top line sobrinos de esteso conde etc. I had perhaps a bit more bass than my personal blanca, but play and sound not a lot different. The neck was the only uncomfortable thing. It was very thick and round. The fingerboard was worn through with some shiny laquer left behind that looked odd. Brune said Montoya used to have to get the neck finished over and over because of sweaty fingers. The bridge was really nice set up not too low or too high.

Santos= I played two (I think from the 30's) , one had an amazing neck very thin and also very low bridge. It had been restored a lot. Sound was great but more the playability was the good point, it was fun and easy. THe action was lower so I could not get the same strong sound out as the esteso. THe other Santos was much more beat up but all original condition. It had a white golpeador. THe easiest to play in the place (but the neck had no finsh left and my thumb couldn't slide fast), but the bridge was super low. Like if you do picados your nails hit the top. And the action was also super low...great for rasgueado but not so great for hard picados etc. I feel that sound wise all three old guitars would be hard to distinguish if the actions were all set up the same way.

Barbero= I think I played two, and one of them I think 51, was pretty much perfect guitar. Sound and feel. A bit low action also, but the bridge set up was so good it could be raised and then really be perfect. I had the feeling that guitar was the favorite master piece of both Brune father and son builders, but it was just a feeling.

Arcangel= played two I think from 70's. Both were negras and i would say one of the two was just a classical with a tap plate. Very bassy dark tone instruments and both had very high bridges. Playability was good on both except for the high bridges.

Ruck= I was already familiar with this guitars but one blanca in there was really special, better than the ones I played in spain some years ago. I think this guitar was late 70's or early 80's...whatever it was, it was not a new guitar.

Conde 67- very odd looking guitar. The finish was like orange paint, and you could see the brush strokes very sloppily applied. The other details were exactly like my 73. Despite the odd finish (Brune swears it is original and knew of one other from same era exactly the same deal), I hate to say, the feel and sound pushed this guitar to the top level for me personally. The singer that came with me agreed, at least hearing me play, I could make the most out of that guitar vs all the others. I think it was mainly beacause of the set up was perfect for me so I could push it how I like it and the neck was so nice etc. Brune seemed pretty proud to own that one too.

Reyes 70- almost identical to the 71 I got to spend some time with years ago. Same sound. Very loud and clear and clean and great action and response and set up. I would say sound and feel wise this and the Conde were the best. Conde is a bit more quiet and focused sounding and less with the brilliant harmonics as this one, and that is why I prefer the conde. But this was a super amazing instrument. The singer I was with felt this was by far the best sounding guitar in the place, but also a player, like the Santos I described above that was super low action and fun to play.

Brune= I played a couple of Brune's guitars which were also fantastic, even a classical guitar I played some bach on, very much in style of the old master guitars (esteso/santos/barbero). Overall a great time and great conversations at lunch about history and wood and Hauser guitars, and he had some great flamenco books out of print too, and got to see some big logs of wood for future guitars etc.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 18:54:37

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Anyway, my experience in there was amazing

Really appreciated your observations and definitive comments on the various instruments.

Very interesting to read, and absorb, and file for reference.

Thanks.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 20:13:08

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for talking about each guitar you tried. Looks like fun.

Do you think the Santos with the thin neck was altered? Did you happen ask Brune' about that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 20:24:13

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

But I do admit I loved playing it and making people like you upset!!!! To be realistic, the guitar passed hands so its not like a direct connection to Monotya, we don't know what was recorded or not with it, what damage was done by montoya himself vs the successive owners etc. You want to examine it and scrap off some DNA to learn what is montoya on the neck he MIGHT let you if you were a lot nicer

Hey I could help you out with that DNA analysis... but I need reference... some DNA from Montoya... get me both.
I guess my name is on a blacklist in his office "dangerous person, could steal that montoya tool which I use for years now to make ppl upset"...hahaha

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 21:30:03

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks for the write up ricardo..

Other than the Arcangel, the rest were all blancas?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 22:27:07

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

I often have a wet dream about an orange Conde like that. One day, I'll visit Spain with a wad of cash and search out one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 23:19:01

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to por medio)

quote:

I often have a wet dream about an orange Conde like that. One day, I'll visit Spain with a wad of cash and search out one.

I my dreams the wetness is paint remover, paint remover which strips every orange ugly Conde' in the universe and lacquers them with a soft golden light honey brown finish.

If only, if only dreams could come true.

Orange and Blue are my favorite colors and neither of them belongs on a guitar. Period.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2013 23:25:43

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Hey Ricardo
I agree about the 51 being the perfect flamenco guitar and also about the action. I am curious though as to when you saw it. I ended up raising the action on it a bit, its still quite low but now a bit more muscular of a guitar. It really needed a slightly higher action than what was there IMO and I think the guitar agreed.

Whoops my bad, I just reread your post and realized that you said you thought one was a 51, not THE 51 (that would have had to have been many years ago). In any case I still agree, he really hit his stride around that point. I just sold a 1952 Barbero that is in need of major restoration but even as is, is incredibly alive and vibrant. We are also working on a 54 that is likewise amazing. Barbero is hands down my favorite historical luthier.

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 0:13:53

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Thankfully not all Europeans have your attitude.

Noooo, its true, believe me. I dont see the purpose of museums. Im bad at looking at installations or pictures, let alone drawing ones myself. Maybe if they sold burgers or hot dogs there, i would be more appreciative. A museum about different burger types where they show you how to cook them yourself live. Now THAT is an idea. I see much practical use coming out of that.
About this guitar, you cannot possibly think i care about it? Im not a builder and not even a player! One thing i know though, it will serve well as pension when its sold. And something, i dont know how to call it but you can call it European education

, tells me it wont get donated.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 8:36:53

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

A museum about different burger types where they show you how to cook them yourself live.

They have those, I used to work at one, it's called a cooking class.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 12:51:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

Understood. I thought that may be the case but I just thought I'd ask because I don't know any American builders doing this. I'm sure there are. I just don't know any.

I remember those Lucio y Tomas guitars. Lucio has gone on to be quite the builder. I used to offer his guitars many years ago but at the time, I don't think he was as well known so I rarely got any interest in them.

Lucio has been building mainly lattice braced models since we worked together and he stays busy. He hardly has time to go to lunch with me. I was a key player in him getting his green card for the year and a half that we worked together. His wife is from San Antonio, so things worked out well for him with transferring his building to his new shop.

I checked out the two guitars and they are good but not to the level of me putting my name on them, yet..... but I think this venture might work, since the factory owner wants to come to my shop for some fine-tuning training. Anyway, I went ahead and fine tuned these two guitars and even with his slight mistakes on the bracing pattern they came out sounding very good.

And the finish on the flamenco was not acceptable, since he used an in-house French polisher who didn't have the experience to apply an even color for the tinting process. He normally sends his guitars to a finish house for a better finish out, but he was pressed for time on this particular deal.

But everything else looked good except for some slight cosmetic anomalies that needed to be worked out to a higher level.

If we can do this, I think we will have a great guitar for the US market.. And possibly a less expensive model to sell..... that is finely tuned.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 14:21:30

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador
They have those, I used to work at one, it's called a cooking class.

Ahahaha, yeah, but im thinking more of an elitist society of men (no women allowed inside the building and within a radius of 200m, no phone calls and or text from girlfriends and its extremely forbidden to talk about girls, unless its a REALLY really funny story), where single living male academics are given the opportunity to honor and learn the art of cooking meat - an activity they have forgotten long ago. A bit like Fight Club, but wihout fighting, and not that "underground", but more exclusive. Summer is coming guys, summer is coming. :)

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 14:26:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

and learn the art of cooking meat

I can dig it, at the cooking school I used to teach "Meat Clinics" and generally it was only guys that showed up. When girls did they were usually kinda scary

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 14:44:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to XXX)

quote:

About this guitar, you cannot possibly think i care about it? Im not a builder and not even a player!

sure, then stop trolling.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 15:11:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Thanks for talking about each guitar you tried. Looks like fun.

Do you think the Santos with the thin neck was altered? Did you happen ask Brune' about that?

The thin neck guitar was significantly repaired/rebuilt...Brune pointed out several spots that were redone including, I think, an entire side, though that could have been a different guitar. There were LOTS of guitars there man. I just know the santos in original condition had no finish on the back of the neck in spots...but sounded great and was super low action.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 15:16:48

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Original Deniz: I don't see the purpose of museums....maybe if they sold burgers or hot dogs there i would be more appreciative. A museum about different burger types were they show you how to cook them yourself live. Now THAT would be an idea.

This weekend my father came over for a visit and as a curiosity he gave me the catalog of a traveling exhibition that visited Rotterdam in the 70ties, showing the anatomical collection of dr. Spitzner, a huge 19th century collection of real and artificial body parts focussing on humans mental/physical/genital deviations. I don't think they sold burgers during that exhibition but they most certainly showed them in the exhibition (burger is the dutch word for civilian).

In the early 70ties my childhood school visited a so called world-museum were we "enjoyed" a guided tour. There we learned that eskimo's shouldn't be called eskimos (because that means "raw meat eaters" which for vague reasons was considered to be an insult, not sure by who) ....in stead they should be referred to as Inuits. 30 years later i saw a marathon documentary about the subject at the IFFR (over 10 hours) that revealed there are many different kinds of eskimo's and that only 1 tribe is referred to as inuit. The other tribes are not amused when you call them inuit. In most documentaries all eskimos are "politically correct" referred to as inuits and every time that happens i can't help wondering....are you sure this is really an inuit and not a member of one of the other tribes?

In the same way eskimo's are called eskimo's dude to there healthy habit to eat raw meat (something i did and partly do myself for many years without problems) the dutch are sometimes referred to as "kaaskoppen" (cheese-heads). In this case the nickname "kaaskop" does not refer to our (cheese) eating habits but to our inventive use of the various sized wooden drums/buckets that were used to make those famous round dutch cheeses. It became synonym to "dutch person" when dutch farmers faced the plundering troops of Napoleon armed with nothing but a pitchfork, using previously named wooden cheese drums/buckets as a wooden helmed to protect their heads. Originally the nickname "kaaskop" was used as an insult but nowadays it's just a synonym for dutch person. I wonder if other museums instruct the visiting eskimo's that "kaaskoppen" is an insult (based on cheese related eating habit's) and that these people prefer to be called Germans.

So if you visit a museum, enjoy the objects but don't believe everything they tell you. The wooden cheese drums that gave us the name "kaaskoppen" can be seen in the Cheese Museum in Bodegraven....wonder if they sell cheeseburgers there :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 15:32:12

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

I like gouda.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2013 22:41:08

timoteo

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Are the kaaskoppen Packer's fans?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2013 3:01:29

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)

Who is calling me a cheesehead here..........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2013 14:15:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Here is a fun interview at Brune’s new location:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2019 16:03:18

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

In this day of Bitcoin and /other investments, it seems that investing in certain artifacts has the advantage of holding a better and longer lasting trend for those who have money to invest in art.

And just like Bitcoin, which has had its highs and lows, master guitars have had highs and lows but always seem to grow in acceptable return on original outlay.

This will certainly keep Brune' busy for the long run and I can't think of anyone else who has a commitment to carry this mantle of historian, master builder, and generally all around nice guy to do business with.

BTW, I'm getting off line for awhile to deal with Chemo and such.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2019 15:02:45

Echi

Posts: 1131
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Good luck with the Chemio. Cheers.

Ps. Bruné is a fantastic person and very clever scholar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 29 2019 12:28:15

Fawkes

Posts: 102
Joined: Feb. 11 2015

RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

Old thread alert! The Maravilla album featuring this guitar is on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lgzbHNtf1CuWTST03xeBdTwPN1fqfLAjk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2023 5:20:10