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Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

Cante por Rondeñas 

I thought this topic deserves its thread.

Jason talked a bit about the cante in the other thread:

quote:

Rondeña is actually a cante form similar to Verdiales and is accompanied in standard tuning.

Ramon Montoya created his own libre guitar solo called Rondeña and did it with the tuning of 6th to D and 3rd to F#. It has become common these days and that is the tuning we are talking about in regards to the solo guitar Rondeña. Oddly enough, it is a tuning that was used for the lute centuries ago, although everything was up a minor third so that the D was an F. I used to use a capo on 3 playing Renaissance music on the guitar when using the tuning because it sounded lighter and more characteristic of the lute.

When people are refering to a tuning of Rondeña, this is the one they are refering to.



And linked to an example of the cante:


Here's another one:


And Verdiales:


Fandangos (Verdiales) (could we just say verdiales?):



Well, I could detect some of the differences but not something I could confidently put into words.
So, fellow cante knowers, to start with a question, what is the relationship between rondenas, verdiales (,fandangos)... how to distinguish one from another etc?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2009 1:28:09
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Hi Matic,

I recognize a few of those cantes when I hear them, but not in an analytical way. They just sound familiar or make me think, "Oh, this is the one that so-and-so sings with such-and-such a letra."

The thing to do is read a bit on the subject, get a bunch of recordings of these cantes abandolaos, learn all the letras and start comparing sung lines of verse. For example, in the Curro Lucena video, he starts in a relatively low register, but other cantes start off really high and strong. If you have 15 recordings, for example, in the end you'll probably find that there are just three or four different cantes. If you do this, you'll have done much more than most researchers and aficionados!

Part of the problem is that it's hard to describe music, so in the end you have to get the melodies inside your head. Also, sometimes the use of the cejilla or alternative toques makes something sound different when it's really not. Notice that Cañizares is accompanying Manuel Gerena por granaína. I mentioned reading on the subject, but of course it's much better to ask someone who knows how to explain the differences and can actually sing or at least hum the different melodies (you'll be able to once you get the melodies into your head). Reading might also give you an idea of the best singers of these styles (Fosforito and Rafael Romero are two from southeastern Spain, like Curro Lucena) and help you to find reliable references (liner notes from certain anthologies, etc.), which is really important when you study cante.

Hope that helps!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2009 2:12:35
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Man my friend who sings has borrowed my video and book, but Merengue de Cordoba part ii encuentro vid was like a "flamenco fake book", and if I remember correct had both Rondeña AND verdiales, and the differences were obvious. But like I said I can't double check. I think for working accompanists that little package was super valuable as a reference. The singer and guitarist were not "exemplary" but it was a fantastic reference point to start with.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2009 6:18:49
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Ricardo

The difference I have found in accompanying Felix por Rondeña is that Rondeña doesn't go to the IV chord until the very end. Verdiales goes to the IV chord both in the middle and the end..... Rondeña: G7,C,G7,C,D7,G7,C,C7,F,E Verdiales: G7,C,C7,F (IV chord ),G7,C,D7,G7,C,C7,F,E

I am positive there are more subtle differences from a cante perspective, but for a guitarist this seems to be the main difference. I could be wrong though, I am just basing it on performing it with one singer.

Felix puts 2 letras of Rondeña at the end of his Granaina that he sings as a cante solo in a lot of shows. For a while I thought it was just a Verdiales that omitted the IV chord in the middle, then one day I asked him and he told me that it wasn't Verdiales...... then I made a mental note about Rondeña and the IV chord thing.

Instead of assuming that you know what cante is being performed, ask the singer if you have the opportunity. They are usually just as impressed with you if you ask them, than if you already know. By asking them you are showing respect for the cante and in the end that is what every singer wants from their accompanist. If you respect it you can learn how to support it properly in performance.



J

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2009 12:22:03
 
Matic

 

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Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Thanks for the replies!

Ricardo, I checked Merengue's encuentro. Yes, he accompanies Rondeñas. But not Verdiales. Well, he shows the chords in the first part but without a singer (I hope I didn't miss anything). In the second part he says his cantaor will interpret ONE OF the cantes of the Verdiales family, Rondeñas. He says all of them (the cantes of verdiales family?) have the same basic rhythm, with 'acordes pertenecientes'. He also says the accompaniment is for all of them equal. He is probably refering to the rhythmic aspect if the chords are specific to the cante.
Which dosn't seem to be totally true to my brain. As Norman also pointed out, Cañizares is accompanying Manuel Gerena por granaína!!! Btw, is the libre part in that video also Rondena?

I checked a couple of examples and they all prove Jason is right about the IV chord. None of rondenas I checked go to IV in the middle and the verdiales do.

I'd love to know the differences from the 'cante point of view' too. I'm considering Norman's advice and gone listening...

Now I'm also confused about this: what is the 'family' of these cantes? Cantes abandoleos? So are Verdiales just another group in cantes abandoleos? or a specific cante? These (attached) 'arboles' say the abandoleos and verdiales are different groups. So which one does a rondena fall into?

Matic

Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2009 4:25:53
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Hi Matic,

I call all of them "cantes abandolaos" but I think I've seen the word "abandolás," (maybe from "malagueñas abandoladas") and I've heard people say verdiales, too. I'm not really sure what the right name is for the whole group, or if there are two or more groups. I'll see if I can dig up some information in the next few days. There are a number of cantes that use the same straight ternary rhythm, like certain malagueñas, fandangos de Lucena, the fandango de Frasquito Yerbagüena, verdiales, rondeñas, javeras, I think there's another one called jabegotas...and they're all basically just fandangos with different melodies and aires. The fandango of Frasquito is supposed to be identical to another cante that I might have already mentioned. I haven't thought about this stuff for a few years (since moving to Jerez; I only know two or three singers here who do those cantes) and I'll have to check my books.

The melodies of fandangos de Lucena and some cantes de Levante (mineras, etc.) share a peculiar flatted note (C if you're playing in F sharp phrygian). This seems to come from southeast Spain and is very different from flamenco in the southwest (Cádiz, Jerez, etc.) Interesting research has been done on this by Norberto Torres, although I think he says that he got the idea from Philip Donnierre (spelling?).

As you know, the classic accompaniment of these cantes is por arriba, but it's not surprising to hear other toques, especially on old 78rpm recordings. El Niño Gloria has a fandango de Lucena with Niño Ricardo accompanying por granaína. It all depends on how high or low the singer's voice is. It seems like this wasn't a problem for the best tocaores, who accompanied with several different toques (like the way Niño Ricardo made siguiriyas por arriba sound just as metallic and satisfying as por medio). Some say that Montoya created mineras tuning just for this reason (to accompany squeaky high voices), and I've even found a recording where he uses rondeñas tuning to accompany cante.

I've never liked those tree charts, but I'm not saying that to criticize you or anything. The Aljarafe chart has siguiriyas as a silly little appendage down at the bottom left. Although it comes right off the trunk, it makes it look like little more than an afterthought. I wouldn't expect accurate information from something that tries to turn cante into a cartoon.

I'll see what I can find in the next few days.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2009 8:57:11
 
JasonMcGuire

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Felix says that the libre part in the vid with Cañizares is indeed another form of Rondeña.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2009 14:27:56
 
Matic

 

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Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to NormanKliman

Hey Norman, that would be great if you took the time to dig into this even more, it is much appreciated. Thanks for all the info!

I'll be in Sevilla next week and I'm wondering if you know about any place where I could buy books about cante/flamenco. I still keep the list of the books you recommended in an email some time ago. I may be able to afford a book or two.

Thanks for asking Felix, Jason. That's awesome: he said 'indeed'. No doubt, yeah

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2009 4:08:42
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

quote:

that would be great if you took the time to dig into this even more


Hi Matic,

Glad to. You've given me a good reason to go back and have a look at the information!

I've just checked the CAF site
http://flun.cica.es/flamenco_y_universidad/BDatos/consulta.BDatos.php?interprete=EL+GLORIA&a_edicion=%25&n_disco=&formato=%25&palo=FANDANGOS&estilo=%25&t_cante=&guitarrista=

and there's no audio file or letra for Gloria's fandango de Lucena, but I noticed that it's the last one listed at the above link (the title is "Una pera, un peral no"). If you can find that, you'll have an example of that cante. When I've got some time, maybe I can upload it. It's pretty unusual.

There's another part of the CAF site

http://flun.cica.es/web/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=16

that has a lot of information on different styles. There's probably something there on rondeñas and other cantes.

Edit: I found some specific information at the above site, but I can't link directly to the page. If you click on the link, you'll see a page with a bunch of links to the left and three links in the center. If you check out the first two links of the three ("Aproximación" and "Didáctica"), there's more information on these cantes in the section called "fandangos abandolaos."

Sorry, but I really don't know of places for books in Seville. There's always the Corte Inglés (always worth having a look), but there are others on Google under "librería sevilla flamenco" like Compás Sur and Casa del Libro. I don't know anything about them, but it looks like they probably have a good selection of books on flamenco and maybe even a website (you might be able to see what's in stock). At the very least, one of those Google hits shows a bunch of book shops on the map, so you can probably plan ahead according to where you're going to be in Seville.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2009 11:27:12
 
Matic

 

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to NormanKliman

Hey Norman,

I haven't yet found that El Gloria recording, I found a recording of that fandango de Lucena by El Cojo de Malaga (it's on Catedra del Cante Collection).
The letra is here also:
http://flun.cica.es/flamenco_y_universidad/BDatos/consulta.BDatos.php?interprete=COJO+DE+MALAGA&a_edicion=%25&n_disco=&formato=%25&palo=%25&estilo=%25&t_cante=&guitarrista=
quote:

Una pera un peral no
un peral echa una pera
una pera un peral no
desgraciao el hombre que espera
para que le digan que no
y el que espera desespera.

Lo vi por La Barrera
Ana María a tu novio
yo lo vi por La Barrera
y yo le di que beber
agua de la Fuente Nueva
Ana María a tu novio.


I have a few other recordings of FdL. It's quite late here, I'll check them more in detail tomorrow. Thanks for guiding me, Norman!


There's a bit info on Rondenas specifically (on the site you linked to):
Didactica>Basico I>Malaga

Gracias,
Matic

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2009 14:53:29
 
Matic

 

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Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

There is some nice info on this subject here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 12 2009 3:26:44
 
NormanKliman

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RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to Matic

Okay, here's some information:

The group of cantes has a few different names. You usually hear "cantes abandolaos" or "cantes de Málaga," and some people say "fandangos malagueños." If you call the group "verdiales" everyone will understand, but verdiales is just one of the cantes in this group. So it's like the cantiñas group and alegrías in that sense.

Nearly all descriptions of this group of cantes mention verdiales, jaberas and rondeñas, but there's also the zángano, the jabegote (jury's still out on that one), the fandango de Frasquito Hierbabuena and others. It looks like some of the cantes abandolaos came from a series of local fandangos from Málaga, Lucena, Granada and Almería that were the ancient folklore of the people who lived there. Manuel Cano wrote that flamenco singers came up with their own artistic versions of these local fandangos. The new creations were more difficult, so they were sung by professionals rather than housewives or farmers, for example. The flamencólogos don't offer much information on those ancient fandangos, saying that they're long lost and all we have today are the personal flamenco versions. For example, they say that the fandango de Granada turned into the granaína, the fandango de Almería became the taranta, etc. But there are still references to these ancient forms if you look hard enough.

The word fandango goes way back in time. According to Antonio and David Hurtado (in the Pastora anthology), the word "fandanguero" was used in Jerez in 1464 to refer to black and white slaves who "organized dances and nighttime scandals."

It looks like the "local-fandango-to-cantes-libres" transition took place in southeast Andalusia late in the 19th century. At about the same time, the toná-soleá-siguiriya aficionados in southwest Spain were doubling their repertoire and the estilos festeros were consolidating, and shortly afterward the ida y vuelta cantes became popular.

The cantes abandolaos come from the area between Málaga and Córdoba, where you'll find towns like Cabra, Lucena, Puente Genil, etc. The oldest forms are supposed to be rondeñas and jaberas, which, according to the book Mundo y Formas, were originally cantes libres. I haven't come across that in any other books, although some of the really old recordings are in fact sung without the abandolao rhythm.

Here are four rondeñas. There are more versions by El Mochuelo, Rafael Romero, Beni de Cádiz, Juan Varea and Virginia Gámez. Rafael Romero seems to be the only one to sing the first line in a lower register. I've heard a lot of singers do it like that, and it adds a really nice feeling of calm. All the other examples follow El Cojo's version, starting off in the high register. Juan Varea recorded a slightly different rondeña that starts with an even higher note and stretches out the conclusion in the lower register, like Fosforito. Notice that Niño Almadén's version repeats the last line of verse because it's a four-liner.

Cojo de Málaga with Borrull in 1924.

A la sandía el color
María tú le has robado
a la sandía el color
a la nieve su blancura
y a la luna el resplandor
a la Virgen su hermosura

Rafael Romero with Perico del Lunar in 1950s.

Para acabarlo de criar
cogí un pájaro de un nido
para acabarlo de criar
y fue tan agradecido
que cuando lo eché a volar
se vino hacia el hombro mío

Niño Almadén with Perico del Lunar in 1950s.

Navegando me perdí
por esos mares de Dios
navegando me perdí
y con la luz de tus ojos
a puerto de mar salí
a puerto de mar salí

Fosforito with Paco de Lucía (late 60s early 70s?).

Ya no le importa a la fuente
corre con rumbo perdido
que no le importa a la fuente
que va buscando los ríos
el arroyo nunca vuelve
al sitio donde nació

There are cantes abandolaos on a few of the Rito y Geografía DVDs, especially the one on the Cordobés singer Pedro Lavado.

I've uploaded the MP3s to my website but I'm just about out of space and will have to delete them after a while.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2009 7:12:00
 
Matic

 

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Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante por Rondeñas (in reply to NormanKliman

Ole Norman!
Just saw your last reply.
Thank you! I'll study this.
Wow

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2009 8:15:28
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