RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contemporary Flamenco Guitar

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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)

Well,... once again as I already wrote... Dont take my comments on this too seriously.. Its of course obvisious that he meant 45 degree and not 450..... It was a joke..

Is there really no ° on a spanish keyboard? .. So,.. I learned something new.

Accepted. It was an irrelevant post I wrote.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2009 11:42:58

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)

Why is my post gone?? Just wrote that I didnt know that spanish people use the 0 instead of the ° symbol.. Thats very ok for me. So my fault... I have the feeling that somebody deletes posts here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2009 12:29:56

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)

Other contributors have already made very good points about specific fallacies of Ruben's article, so I can be precise:
The title is a joke; the premise is absurd, the content is absurd, and the conclusion is absurd. It demonstrates nothing other than the author's unhealthy obsession (yet again!).

As Ivan said, it is badly researched and badly written, and despite the author's desperate attempts to claim academic credibility, it would not be accepted in a first-year university class (and yes, I have taught a first year university class).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2009 17:37:11

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Just wrote that I didnt know that spanish people use the 0 instead of the ° symbol..

You mean Mexican people. To be fair to Ruben, I can't find a 'degree' sign on a North American keyboard (or even in the character map). But his article is still rubbish.

quote:

I have the feeling that somebody deletes posts here.

Sometimes there's a long delay........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2009 17:51:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 30 2009 2:50:08

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 2:47:05

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

About "añadido," I've thought about his definition and checked out four or five of the references he offers but I still don't understand what he's talking about. If he means the silence between beats 10 and 12, he hasn't defined the term that way.

I think maybe on the second day of Prof Diaz appearance here, I called him out on that one and some other of his ideas I was skeptical of. It is clear to me, then and even more now based on his audio examples in the article, he is refering to what he thinks as an "extension" of the compas of bulerias by half (the half compas cut or add to a falseta or last line of cante). He must just discovered it on paco's cd and had an epiphany. So I pointed it out then that this was common and predated PDL (he laughed at me), but honestly a big red flag went up for me when he first said that, that told me he is not very experienced with cante.

Anyway, the whole article that is "not opinion" as he claims but scientific proof of his ideas, seems almost the direct result of his first appearance here when Doit, myself, and a couple others said "hey wait, don't use paco's name to claim YOUR techniques and teaching....this is general techniques if not YOUR original technique". He never could accept that, and his paper here seems to be the "proof" of his rightness and our wrongness.

Like I said, the red flag went up for me and I ignored him until certain things happend like attacking the playing of Morao and Mcguire etc, but kind of wished I kept ignoring cuz look where we are now.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 2:49:23

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ricardo)

You know this might just be a sneaky strategy to gather information from other people for some future project of his.

It's like the story of the guy studying medicinal plants who goes to the Amazon to learn from the natives. He follows the shaman around everywhere, but the old man refuses to even look him in the face. When he sees the shaman examining an unusual plant, he says, "In my country we use this for headaches." The old man grunts in contempt but says nothing. When the old man looks at another strange plant, the young guy says, "In my country we use this for fever," to which the old man reacts by spitting on the ground and glaring at him. At the third plant, he says "We use this for kidney stones" and finally the old man can take no more and yells at him, "What the hell are you talking about?!!! Everyone knows that it's for disinfection!!!" The young man just smiles and writes it down in his notebook.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 4:15:44

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to NormanKliman)

OOO....we could start a trail of misinformation. I think an major fact overlooked in the "research paper" is hair length. Did you know up until Paco de Lucia all guitarists had short hair eg. Ramon Montoya, Cepero, Sabicas etc. Paco started the fashion of long hair for flamenco guitarists and this was solely his invention and innovation. Since than many guitarists including Tomatito, Vicente Amigo etc. have grown their hair long but this means absolutley nothing. They are merely copying the ideas of the original master. In fact Niño Josele actually cut his hair short after touring with Paco. This fact is conclusive proof that Pacos innovation is definitive in hair length also.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 5:31:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ricardo)

Well Ruben,

I guess as you can see, it's pretty obvious from all the replies that there is no support here for your observations and theories.

You are a really good guitarist and I'm sure you would have had a lot to offer regarding technique etc, but you have very fixed opinions which irritate a lot of members here and I really cannot see you being involved in ForoFlamenco as a participating member.

I can only second Jason's recommendation of perhaps getting involved with other Paco fans at http://www.pacodelucia.org/foro/ and wish you the best of luck for the future.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 5:39:50

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

I'm just here to learn to play better guitar, and just like if I was studying at a
University, I guess I wouldn't want Ward Churchill for my Professor ....

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 6:13:15

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

He follows the shaman around everywhere, but the old man refuses to even look him in the face.

But foroflamenco shamans are more than happy to share their knowledge. I think he has another agenda.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 7:10:15

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

i am curious, what paco would do or say to ruben, if he would read all that.
and specially this:

quote:

“This analysis leads to the conclusion that none of the guitar players above mentioned (the list of players Diaz mentions include Cepero, Sanulcar, Amigo, Pepe Habichuela, Nino de Pura, Gerardo Nunez, Tomatito, Nino Jero, Nino Josele, Diego del Morao, and Antonio Rey) have done any innovation or contribution in any field of flamenco guitar. Some of them have just taken what Paco de Lucía did long time ago without even realizing it thinking that they have done some novelty. Others just took for granted that the way they play the guitar is the way it has been always done. The most important point is that it is due to IGNORANCE and lack of an academic approach that they present themselves as innovators, original composers etc. This is a very serious situation, and it’s the main cause of the lack of creativity in flamenco music realm now a days.”

would he be deeply stirred and feel flattered and thank ruben for the great analysis and for proving the "thruth", that he is the one and only ........ or .......would he just ring Ruben and tell him that he should stop writing about him immediately ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 7:33:01

buddytalk

Posts: 20
Joined: Jun. 28 2009

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

WOULD PACO????
YES HE WOULD..BELIEVE ME! HIS LIFE IS SHOW BUSINESS .

MISS. U

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 8:28:02

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

This fact is conclusive proof that Pacos innovation is definitive in hair length also.

That's freaking hilarious!

According to the standards of Prof. Diaz it must be true.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 9:02:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

i am curious, what paco would do or say to ruben, if he would read all that.
and specially this:

quote:

“This analysis leads to the conclusion that none of the guitar players above mentioned (the list of players Diaz mentions include Cepero, Sanulcar, Amigo, Pepe Habichuela, Nino de Pura, Gerardo Nunez, Tomatito, Nino Jero, Nino Josele, Diego del Morao, and Antonio Rey) have done any innovation or contribution in any field of flamenco guitar. Some of them have just taken what Paco de Lucía did long time ago without even realizing it thinking that they have done some novelty. Others just took for granted that the way they play the guitar is the way it has been always done. The most important point is that it is due to IGNORANCE and lack of an academic approach that they present themselves as innovators, original composers etc. This is a very serious situation, and it’s the main cause of the lack of creativity in flamenco music realm now a days.”

would he be deeply stirred and feel flattered and thank ruben for the great analysis and for proving the "thruth", that he is the one and only ........ or .......would he just ring Ruben and tell him that he should stop writing about him immediately ?

Well think about it man. He once knocked out Al Dimeola for playing out of tune and having an attitude about it. What do YOU think he could do?

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 9:29:30

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

What do YOU think he could do?

Well, at least it's Paco and not Gerardo, so he won't get his hands nailed to the floorboards.

Seriously though, I think he would be embarrassed by stuff like that but I'm sure all this fan stuff doesn't bother him or any of those guys now as they've heard it all so many times before, so just yawn and read something else.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 10:26:41

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Pimientito)

Good point about the hair, Pim...there's a lot of ignorance about that in flamenco nowadays, people just take it for granted and assume that some gitano started it.

So now we all know about Paco de Lucía. But what about the innovations of El Pollo de California? So far he hasn't been mentioned but even I have seen him do things that Paco has never done. His innovations in the field of flamenco dramaturgy have so far been ignored by those of an academical perspective and should be the subject of serious analysis.

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:06:55

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

i am curious, what paco would do or say to ruben, if he would read all that.
and specially this:

quote:

“This analysis leads to the conclusion that none of the guitar players above mentioned (the list of players Diaz mentions include Cepero, Sanulcar, Amigo, Pepe Habichuela, Nino de Pura, Gerardo Nunez, Tomatito, Nino Jero, Nino Josele, Diego del Morao, and Antonio Rey) have done any innovation or contribution in any field of flamenco guitar. Some of them have just taken what Paco de Lucía did long time ago without even realizing it thinking that they have done some novelty. Others just took for granted that the way they play the guitar is the way it has been always done. The most important point is that it is due to IGNORANCE and lack of an academic approach that they present themselves as innovators, original composers etc. This is a very serious situation, and it’s the main cause of the lack of creativity in flamenco music realm now a days.”

would he be deeply stirred and feel flattered and thank ruben for the great analysis and for proving the "thruth", that he is the one and only ........ or .......would he just ring Ruben and tell him that he should stop writing about him immediately ?

Well think about it man. He once knocked out Al Dimeola for playing out of tune and having an attitude about it. What do YOU think he could do?

ok, next question:

what would we (and you) do, if Paco would join the foro and confirm that everything prof. ruben said is true and that we should all shut up?

ehh....and Ron, honestly...would you ban him or at least restrict his foro privilages (like controling his messages before posting)?

we would go down in history as the coolest foro in the world.......the flamenco guitar foro which banned Paco

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:17:29

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

what would we (and you) do, if Paco would join the foro and confirm that everything prof. ruben said is true and that we should all shut up?

It's a risk we're all willing to take.

(But - strangely - "Prof." Diaz "PhD" is not willing to risk posting his valuable information on the Paco de Lucía Forum.

)

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:23:27

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

It's a risk we're all willing to take
.

indeed

......

what would you ask him or say to him, if you would have only question free?

i would ask him: how much do you want for your guitar?

quote:

(But - strangely - "Prof." Diaz "PhD" is not willing to risk posting his valuable information on the Paco de Lucía Forum. )

maybe that foro has a bad alexa ranking

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:37:49

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

we would go down in history as the coolest foro in the world.......the flamenco guitar foro which banned Paco

I'm sure there would be no need to Arash.

As someone who has to use the same resources such as airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, shops just like anyone else does, I'm pretty sure he knows how to conduct himself in a normal civilized way like the rest of us.

Hey even Paco has to call in a local Plumber to fix his water pipes once in a while!

I read a comment on YouTube on a Paco Peña video, which said something like..

"Jeez....I'm a London taxi driver. I've picked this guy up at his house several times....I had no idea he was famous or anything... Really impressed!".

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:39:51

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

we would go down in history as the coolest foro in the world.......the flamenco guitar foro which banned Paco

I'm sure there would be no need to Arash.

As someone who has to use the same resources such as airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, shops just like anyone else does, I'm pretty sure he knows how to conduct himself in a normal civilized way like the rest of us.

Hey even Paco has to call in a local Plumber to fix his water pipes once in a while!

I read a comment on YouTube on a Paco Peña video, which said something like..

"Jeez....I'm a London taxi driver. I've picked this guy up at his house several times....I had no idea he was famous or anything... Really impressed!".

cheers,

Ron

yeah, but i think this may only be the case , if you are a Flamenco musician (which of course means that you are a down-to-earth nice guy

)...

i don't think that all famous people know how to conduct themselves in a civilized way....specially if you are a hip hop gangstar or something

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 11:52:50

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Arash)

quote:

i don't think that all famous people know how to conduct themselves in a civilized way....

Oh, I dunno Arash...

I remember after Princess Diana's funeral, a guy who ran a little mobile hot-dog van said he was amazed when Elton John and George Michael tapped on his window and ordered a couple of burgers and a couple of cups of tea on their way back from the Abbey.

(Apparently Elton decided to have a walk just to get some fresh air and unwind a bit afterwards)

Also the time when another burger stand owner in Blackpool was amazed to see Tony Blair and ex US president Bill Clinton as customers at a break from a conference being held round the corner.

We're all human.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 12:17:28

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

Sure Ron, but we also have the other "stories" and the behaviour from others like Eminem, Naomi Campbell, Puff Daddy, Tommy Lee, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Mike Tyson, Ernst August, Liam Gallagher, and .....and......and...the list is very very long....

so, yes, we have all kind of people out there......

and for sure, Paco belongs to the group you mentioned ,...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 12:26:00

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Arash)

Yeah Arash, I know...

Some guys would have turned over the hot dog stand and set it on fire!

It's a big world out there for sure!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 12:30:24

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

But what about the innovations of El Pollo de California? So far he hasn't been mentioned but even I have seen him do things that Paco has never done. His innovations in the field of flamenco dramaturgy have so far been ignored by those of an academical perspective and should be the subject of serious analysis.

LOL!
I agree, a serious analysis is needed here.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 12:33:31

marrow3

Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

My knowledge is a bit shaky on this, but when Paco cut his teeth, flamenco wasn't that well known and this kind of global stardom would have been an issue. So I assume that he could have kept his feet on the ground.

I was talking to Rafeal (teacher in Oxford) about this and how the in academic departments there are many world class experts but you don't think twice about seeing them around. Raf said that its more like that in Flamenco circles (or at least it used to be).

thanks
R.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 13:09:11

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

what would we (and you) do, if Paco would join the foro and confirm that everything prof. ruben said is true and that we should all shut up?

Who would proof that its really Paco whos writing. I think we would need a youtube video where hes commenting. But why should paco care?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 13:16:48

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)

So, has Rueben been banned? I take it that he has...

Reuben was an a**hat and I glad he was not Canadian after all. Still, it is interesting how everyone got their knickers in a twist and didn't choose to ignore the bad and enjoy the good. The only guy that had a real beef imho was Jason (and other flamenco guitar teachers by extension), and Reuben showed no class and never apologized. For that Reuben is rightly a Dic head.

It is funny how some people get off on the wrong foot or question the status quo, wrongly or rightly, and they get pushed out eventually. Like the 'Shroom guy, or that abrasive guy with the vast flamenco knowledge, or now Reuben.

Free speech is just to damn inconvenient to tolerate I guess.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2009 13:58:26