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Paco de Lucia and the Contemporary Flamenco Guitar
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xirdneH_imiJ
Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
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 RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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as intelligently as i can say, i seriously think this is too much analysis...most people that understand flamenco know and acknowledge Paco de Lucía as a genius, an artist, an innovator in flamenco music, but this kind of analysis is perhaps not the best way to prove his godlikeness...quite the opposite, i think it kind of brings revulsion towards the artist himself who's had nothing to do with all this - because many people will obviously feel that other great contributors to the genre are looked down upon...while Paco de Lucía's importance in flamenco is obvious, and even if he's my favorite musician, i can't honestly say that his contribution to modern flamenco is 100% - Ruben says just that, and i'd think most people would appreciate what he has to say much more if he were to admit that Paco is "only" 99%...i've listened to all Paco records and live recordings a million times and have gotten a lot from him, musically, aesthetically, in every sense almost, but i've also listened to other greats and many upcoming artists and can't say they haven't brought anything to flamenco...surely after Paco de Lucía it's very difficult to be an innovator...but music is music, one plays it for pleasure, the goal is rarely to become an innovator...i listen to Paco for pleasure, i listen to Gerardo, Tomatito, Vicente for the same reasons - they all touch the strings differently, achieveing your own tone on the guitar is an innovation in itself, who am i to say Vicente is nobody because Paco's done everything before him, while it's obvious he has his own tone, his own style? even if i was Paco's father, brother, son, pupil, best friend, i wouldn't have the right...and from what i've heard of him and the kind of person he was he would surely say that this whole thing, arguments, analysis is a waste of time and energy...he'd encourage us to find our own ways and believe our own ears - that's what playing music is all about...
edit: it was funny to read Juan Martín's name in there :)
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Date Jun. 27 2009 6:48:36
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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And this is not meant to be an ad hominem zinger, but he signed this article as
“Prof. Ruben Diaz
Ph.D. Contemporary Harmony
and Composition”
I can’t find any mention of any actual academic history on Diaz’s website, the RCM site (where he is not referred to as “Professor”), or anywhere else. No CV, no mention of what universities he studied at or where he took his degrees.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a Ph.D not listing his academic background, or where he got his degree, in his official bio.
Signing a paper or article with those academic titles obviously lends a considerable amount of extra weight to the arguments within it, so whether or not someone actually is a Ph.D is of crucial importance in judging the authenticity of the claims being made and of the person making them. You know, “bona fides” and such.
Ron, I know you asked that all comments be directed at the content of the article itself, and not its author, but this whole Prof./Ph.D thing is a huge unanswered question, and an important one, I think. If the guy actually is a Ph.D I’ll happily shut up and move on. I’ve already spent too much of my Saturday morning trying find the dude’s CV. But if those titles are just honorary or otherwise less than official, well, I think that’s kind of a big deal, and something that should be addressed.
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Date Jun. 27 2009 9:17:24
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
If you can't think of anything intelligent to say, then don't.
Very insightful answers above. My 2 pesetas…('hope they qualify):
I too received a private message from Ruben Diaz with links to his article. At first, I thought had sent it to address my query on composing a Solea. He did not. He seems to have pm’d a few –if not all the- members, bypassing the forum’s embargo by disseminating yet more self-promoting propaganda.
The article, or research paper, seems to be based on Diaz’ personal views, perceptions and personal uncorroborated experience, rather than on fact, testimony, or other body of established authority. Hence, not a reliable schedule of conclusions. But above all, an inconsequential document, I find. My favorite Chinese aphorism inevitably comes to mind, as so much time is spent by scrutinizing details which do not sum up to the greatness they are quoted to have conjured. “when the master points to the moon, a bad student stares at the finger”.
Paco may or may not have introduced “negras” as opposed to “blancas” or other technical improvements detailed in Ruben Diaz’ schedule. Yet Paco de Lucia’s pioneering contribution is not predicated on a handful of such oddities, but on his artistry as a whole. He certainly built on tradition, and borrowed from the past in order to reinvent the future of flamenco to which, in turn, many have contributed, some inspired Paco some were by him.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Jun. 27 2009 11:26:59
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to srshea)
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quote:
can’t find any mention of any actual academic history on Diaz’s website, the RCM site (where he is not referred to as “Professor”), or anywhere else. No CV, no mention of what universities he studied at or where he took his degrees.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a Ph.D not listing his academic background, or where he got his degree, in his official bio.
Yeah Adam,
I've found the same thing myself.
I've no idea of how the educational establishment works in N.America.
Here in the UK a Professor is normally a "Dr" who is Head of a department.
I also find it difficult to agree with his general findings, but cannot argue with his Harmonic Analysis etc, since I have no musical training, but I know a lot of folk here do.
Still, he is a very good player and is willing to help students here for free, so I cannot dismiss him completely.
I like this one myself, not because of any "Paco" vibe, but just because he plays Flamenco well IMO.
http://****/rdvideo24.html
I can't understand why he needs to carry the cross for Paco, when Paco doesn't need any cross to be carried.???
Anyway, stay respectful as you have been doing.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jun. 27 2009 11:53:37
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Alright, I just read through this sucker. This thing simply just does not warrant serious critical discussion. Every page is filled with absolutely silly, unproven, and purely subjective claims and assertions. It would be a waste of time to address these individually.
In his opening argument he states that:
“This article is not for the sake of discredit or criticism of anyone nor to present an individual’s opinion about the subject; opposite to that, it offers a scientific and an objective comparative analysis supported by the standard orthodox tenets on musical theory and harmony as well as the essential flamenco principles, namely, rhythmic, techniques and musical arrangement.”
Diaz’s method of providing objective, “scientific” proof of his claims is patently ridiculous. He simply makes a claim (that PDL pioneered a certain right-hand technique, style of crossing the legs, use of a certain chord, etc.), cites a recorded example of PDL performing said technique, and then leaves it at that. That’s it. In his comparative analyses he offers a “randomly” chosen example of another player, a contemporary of PDL or a someone from a subsequent generation, points out examples of them playing a certain chord or technique, or crossing their legs in a certain way, or playing a guitar made of a particular kind of wood, etc., cites an example of PDL doing this same thing at an earlier time, and, again, simply leaves it at that.
By what reasonable standard does this provide any “scientific” proof of any of Diaz’s assertions!?! It proves nothing. This perversion of the scientific method would get you a failing grade in any high school science class. This is not a serious, scholarly piece of scientific/aesthetic discourse. It’s a parody of one.
This here is from page 4:
“This analysis leads to the conclusion that none of the guitar players above mentioned (the list of players Diaz mentions include Cepero, Sanulcar, Amigo, Pepe Habichuela, Nino de Pura, Gerardo Nunez, Tomatito, Nino Jero, Nino Josele, Diego del Morao, and Antonio Rey) have done any innovation or contribution in any field of flamenco guitar. Some of them have just taken what Paco de Lucía did long time ago without even realizing it thinking that they have done some novelty. Others just took for granted that the way they play the guitar is the way it has been always done. The most important point is that it is due to IGNORANCE and lack of an academic approach that they present themselves as innovators, original composers etc. This is a very serious situation, and it’s the main cause of the lack of creativity in flamenco music realm now a days.”
How can this be taken seriously or be responded to in any respectful seriousness? This kind of thing is beneath comment.
Diaz ends his article with this:
“Flamenco contemporary music is, thanks to Paco de Lucia, a great field for musical creation which doesn’t belong to a specific culture anymore, but to humanity.”
After pages of proving that PDL is the only innovative or creative figure in flamenco’s past four decades, Diaz concludes his argument by, uh, negating his whole argument!?!
Well, a good joke does need a strong punch line.
The professor gets an F.
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Date Jun. 27 2009 12:13:43
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kozz
Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
From: http://www.guitarfoundation.org/drupal/node/4816
My intention with this article is to demonstrate de Lucia’s innovations in contemporary flamenco guitar and to get the appropriate perspective of his work through a detailed comparative analysis of the work and performance of other flamenco guitar players.This is my conclusion. ......
"This is my conclusion..." .... well that's just what it is. No scientific proof.
quote:
all should be called “Paco de Lucia techniques” and not “general flamenco techniques”.
This, in my opinion, is a real degradation to the whole Flamenco culture.
I was playing golpes, but didn't have any fingernails yet, so I always played flesh golpes, not nowing there was a difference in these kind of golpes.
Was I an innovator too, without nowing it?????
Well I don't think so....
As a scientist it is always very important to have as much references as possible, and leave as less room for discussion as possible (on a fact-level ofcourse and not THIS IS WHAT IT IS).
Prof.Dr.Diaz, I would sincerely appreciate Paco de Lucia's involvement in this, and also University of Toronto's official agreement on your article, since it has been spread arround the internet on lots of places.
Not everyone will question your statements, because they can feel overwhelmed by your "analysis", and therefore taking things for granted. Which would be another downfall for the whole flamenco society.
I kindly ask you to come up with the above, otherwhise I will ask U-of-T myselves what they think about your article.
U-of-T state not to be responsible for the content on 3rd party websites, which is valid, but they can question the content which is being teached.
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Date Jun. 28 2009 1:10:49
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Paco de Lucia and the Contempora... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Here are some of my impressions on all of this:
You guys ought to be a little more careful in your criticism because it's not the first time I've seen mistaken interpretations of this guy's claims. When he says that guitarists don't use muting anymore, this appears next to a comment on alzapúa, but he doesn't say that nobody plays alzapúa anymore. And the comment about a 450 degree angle is obviously because he used the zero symbol (0) instead of the degree symbol (º) and meant to say 45º angle.
But if you read through his text too quickly, I can hardly blame you. That's the main reason why I haven't really bothered to comment until now. I strongly disagree with his claims and I really don't like the way he's going about making them. Let's see... another talented guitarist who simultaneously dishes out extra helpings of hero-worship and contempt? Yeah, that's just what we need! In fact I think that's the biggest problem today rather than the ignorance or "lack of academic approach" that he mentions. Depositing all your faith in one person whom you hold above yourself is one of the more unfortunate human behavior patterns. In matters of life and death (i.e., politics and religion), it might be easier to understand, but this is art!!! If you want to see how this affects flamenco, look at the phenomenon of mairenismo. In one of Paco's interviews, he says that "everyone sang like Mairena and we all played like Melchor."
He only analyzes bulerías, and only one bulería of each of several players. This makes for an extremely poor analysis that is representative of nothing, not even bulerías.
He states, "This article is not for the sake of discredit or criticism of anyone..." but goes on to say, "...none of the guitar players above mentioned (...) have done any innovation or contribution in any field of flamenco guitar." I'm sorry, that's just talking trash.
About the cross-legged position, there's a photo of a guitarist playing cross-legged at the Concurso de Granada in 1922. It's on the Sonifolk CD of recordings from García Lorca's record collection. The guitarist is propping the lower bout on his right thigh, so it's not the same as Paco's position, but his legs were clearly crossed in 1922, and that's the important part, IMO. Once your legs are crossed, it's just a matter of time (fatigue) before you're going to lower the neck and rest the guitar on your leg between the two bouts.
About alzapúas, Diego del Gastor and Sabicas recorded alzapúas a few years before Paco de Lucía. The recordings of Diego are from informal gatherings and are not accurately dated, but it's the same timeframe, give or take a few years. Sabicas didn't use the same thumbstroke pattern, but it's clearly related.
About "añadido," I've thought about his definition and checked out four or five of the references he offers but I still don't understand what he's talking about. If he means the silence between beats 10 and 12, he hasn't defined the term that way.
About Montoya he says:
Although at that time there was rhythmic reference (hand claps - palmas) while accompanying dance or singing, when playing alone, guitar players did not use hand claps to play over.
What's this statement based on? Montoya made most of those solo recordings in Paris, and may have been traveling with just his guitar (no palmeros). Regarding the rest of his analysis of Ramón Montoya, it should be pointed out that over 7,000 recordings of flamenco were made up until the advent of modern recording technology (microsurco). We still don't know exactly how many there are, but Montoya plays on at least 500 recordings. Nobody has all of these recordings and certainly nobody has analyzed them all. A huge amount of ideas can be traced back to Montoya, and nobody should rule him out too quickly as a possible source. This applies particularly to the comments about Sabicas:
0:18: Certainly it was an innovation the use of chromatic scales as a melody to describe the following chord progression: V7 to bIII7 (min 0:21).
0:51: The use of chains of b3rds, never used before Sabicas...
1:10: Use of the aux. dominant V/VI, the goes to VIm. Certainly an innovation, for Ramon Montoya never did something like this, nor anyone else.
Another of his comments: When the flamenco became widely known in the world in the first half of the last century (especially in United States) and became a good business, it was vital to keep a close secrecy about the essential principles of flamenco disguising it as “the mystery of the duende” in flamenco.
That's ****. Spanish writers were saying the same thing at the beginning of the 20th century. Just look at Lorca, and he wasn't the first.
I've also heard what Jason mentioned about David Serva and E-flat Phrygian. Adding to this, on several occasions I've seen David attribute his own ideas or those of others to Paco when asked. The point is that David admires Paco and has no problems crediting him for certain ideas (I suspect that in some cases the ideas really were David's, and that he was having a bit of fun), but in this case he clearly states that the E-flat thing is his.
Why hasn't Ruben posted anywhere on the Paco de Lucía site?
Edit: Just to keep this fair, if Ruben wants to respond to anything in my post, he can contact me through the e-mail address on my website, the URL of which is available through my forum profile.
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Be here now.
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Date Jun. 28 2009 3:12:08
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During playing the opening compases Im muting the strings with fingers of the left hand. 
As I heared 360° = 0° is the maximum.. 
