RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally

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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to bursche)

quote:

I'm in too, although I have little accompaniment experience.

thats fine man..its a learning experience for all of us...just a good excuse to research it in depth

quote:

Is there a deadline to be counted in?

no , theres plenty of time

quote:

There's one problem: my digital microphone is too slow for monitoring. I have to see if I can actually do the recording.

hope u sort it out...il put u down anyway feel free to change that later if u still have problems

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2009 9:26:56

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

One of the participants pmed and asked if i can share more of the loop so that he can do an intro..i said that i would ask how everyone feels about it..

are u guys cool with this ? or should all the entries be the same size..

personally i have no preferance but again i dont wanna speak for all

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2009 11:51:55

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Oh there's more of the loop at the beginning? I wanna do an intro toooo

You could post it for everyone and leave it up to them

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2009 15:47:47

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Its cool with me. Can you get the file together for those who want an intro Flo? You can use the section between the letras and past it at the beginning...... I'm sure I didn't need to mention that.

Make both available....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2009 21:19:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

ok il loop one and upload tonight

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2009 21:34:48

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

http://rapidshare.com/files/251797949/Cante_challenge_with_intro.mp3.html

this is the cante track with a litlle extra compas at the start for an intro...i cant upload anything past 4 mbs here, if someone else can can they try and download it from rapid share and share it here please..it eventualy gets deleted at rapidshare

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2009 3:11:24

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

I was playing around with it lately and could need some expertise from the cante guys! Is it better to stick with the cante or with the compas loop? Should it be a note for note accompainment of the cante, or a compas basis (with the right chords of course) where more the singing serves as improvisation?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 7:34:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

I was playing around with it lately and could need some expertise from the cante guys! Is it better to stick with the cante or with the compas loop? Should it be a note for note accompainment of the cante, or a compas basis (with the right chords of course) where more the singing serves as improvisation?

Depends what you mean by "stick with". I mean, don't ever go out of compas relative to the loop, but...the whole game and art about it is what you are really asking. Can't really give more advice without a demo. That is what the challenge is about. There is more than one "correct" way to do it, that is part of the beauty of it. But out of compas is out of compas....stick to the loop interms of tempo and phrasing and groove.

PS, the singing is not really an "improvisation" as you think of it, and he is actually singing in compas to the loop. Good luck man!

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 7:41:10

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

What i mean is... the cante does not always resolve into chords on the accents, but normally, in normal compas playing, the chords always only change on the accents. Now, sometimes it sounds strange, to my ear at least, to play the 9 as the 10, but the cante resolves on 9 and not on 10. Im making the numbers up it could be 8 or anything.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 7:50:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

What i mean is... the cante does not always resolve into chords on the accents, but normally, in normal compas playing, the chords always only change on the accents. Now, sometimes it sounds strange, to my ear at least, to play the 9 as the 10, but the cante resolves on 9 and not on 10. Im making the numbers up it could be 8 or anything.

Ok I got you. That is another part of the art of accompaniment to take note of. You resolve AFTER the singer, not always litterally with him....because he can take you with his voice some other place, so a good singer gets where he wants YOU to go, before you. So in a case like you say, you sense the singer give the note on count 9 say, you give the correct chord on 10. That is typical, but does not always have to be that way, the is part of the art.

When you do this live it is much different then when you have the chance to "arrange" your accompaniment. It is up to you to take advantage of the "arranging" opportunity, or do something more traditional....like record your version in ONE and only ONE take without practicing or even listening to it first. Which is how it would be with a live cantaor.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 7:56:43

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

very happy to see some discussion about this..

i am listening to every spb i can get my hands on ..thats whats exciting about this challenge...

for arguments sake ..as long as u keep the strong compas ..the singer can go to any chords and resolve it anyway he wants hes the captain..your job is to in compas follow him wherever he goes..once u are used to the spb accompany and patterns theres certain caracteristical Spb accomp patterns u can do in places anticipating...

but even if for arguments sake hes "wrong" aand doing things differently to what u practiced and u have to be wrong with him otherwise it will be really obvious, u cannot afford to go any other way other then were the singer wants to go..IMO

i dont know what do you all think ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 11:36:34

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

It just took me a while to get used to it, but now its ok i think i have worked out an arrangement. It was just a blockade in my compas brain. :)
Now i need a falseta... i have never played in that key and dont know any falsetas either...

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 12:33:00

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Now i need a falseta... i have never played in that key and dont know any falsetas either...

thats cool u have plenty of time...it dosent have to be show stopping, just something simple to offer a nice litlle bridge, litlle release in tenshion..imo depending on your approach and what u wanna do with it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 12:42:19

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

i have never played in that key

por medio??

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2009 13:10:51

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

very happy to see some discussion about this..

i am listening to every spb i can get my hands on ..thats whats exciting about this challenge...

for arguments sake ..as long as u keep the strong compas ..the singer can go to any chords and resolve it anyway he wants hes the captain..your job is to in compas follow him wherever he goes..once u are used to the spb accompany and patterns theres certain caracteristical Spb accomp patterns u can do in places anticipating...

but even if for arguments sake hes "wrong" aand doing things differently to what u practiced and u have to be wrong with him otherwise it will be really obvious, u cannot afford to go any other way other then were the singer wants to go..IMO

i dont know what do you all think ?

Okay this is the part that as a newbie, actually boggles my mind...you say that "the singer can go to any chord he wants". Okay, so in this case, as there is no fixed arrangement, how the hell do I know which chord to play at which point of the cante? I mean, I can stay in compas just fine, pretty much ignoring the cante, but I just can't figure out how I'm supposed to tell on my own the harmonic progression I should be following.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 9:29:30

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Munin)

I have another question

"the singer can go to any chord he wants"

do singers really think "in chords"???

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 12:14:52

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to XXX)

The singer does have harmony (chords) in mind. They usually know what they want to hear even if they can't tell you in words.

Believe it or not, this is how the system works. And it works brilliantly and is set up in way that after you have enough experience you can do performances without rehearsals. The singer can go to just about any tone in the scale. But they gravitate to certain tried and true melodic ideas usually. The study of these and the chords that accompany them will make VERY clear what chord to play when a singer sings. Study and notice, when a singer does this, the guitar plays this chord and when a singer sings that the guitar plays that chord. Then you begin to notice other players playing substitions that in some cases sound so good you decided to play those chords sometimes, if for no other reason just to keep things fresh.

I will say this in regards to this challenge. What Felix is singing here can be accompanied extremely effectively with just a few chords. A, A7, Bb, G minor, C7,F7 and D minor.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 15:22:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

Okay, so in this case, as there is no fixed arrangement,

there is...and u also ideally u practice with the singer before hand and are prepared ...i am trying to say that u dont have your own script that you follow blindly without listening to the singer anymore because u practiced with him before...even when u practiced

its always a good idea to be just behind the singer a split of a second just like in dance accompany so if he does decide to change, speed, or accidentaly changes order of letras or has an off night and forghets, or feels like streacthing a note longher or just feels like taking an artistic freedoom for any reason ..(whatever) u have enough time to change with him..u never play exactly at the same time with him....always just behind..let him go the the note first ...even when u know what the next note is

thats what i mean right or "wrong" u follow wherever he goes...if u anticipate too much u are imposing your will and leading him...wich shouldnt be the case imo

u only anticipate things u absoluteley 100 % certain about...like the caracteristical prograssions and strumming that each palo has in a midlle of a letra u know... or if its to resolve something ..or do a sudden strong early stop to set him up to resolve ..etc

lol i am using alot of words but really all i am trying to say is that u cant afford to stop listening and go on by yourself anticipating just because u practiced with him and think that he will always do everything exactly the same like a robot..

thats not accompanying ...thats playing along at the same time

thats what makes flamenco so exciting imo...no matter how many times u heard it before theres always an element of wildness about it and feeling like anything could happen any given second...the feeling of unpredicability and if one anticipates too much its not allowing it alot of room to be that

u like the setup guy in a comedy duo...u there to listen and follow most of the time and every now and then u set him up for a punchline

but dont writte this down as low yet lol i am just studing it just like everyone else...just self drawn conclusions and opinions...its just fun to discuss it...and hear how others feel about it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 16:37:30

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 20:14:17

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Guest)

excellent !!

welcome

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2009 20:22:53

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Regrettably, I must withdraw my participation in the cante competition. After yet another incident with my left hand index finger, this time left unresolved even after the most painful acupuncture, I restored faith in the more traditional western medicine… orthopedic surgery, to be exact.

Apparently I am suffering from a rather common calcification of the –in lay terms- tracks were tendons run, resulting in a painfully “clicking” finger.

I am sorry to have insisted on delaying the deadline to accomodate my summer schedule and now have forfeited. Believe me I am so disappointed.

I know the competition will not be the same without me…

but I will catch up real soon.

Florian and I have worked out some interesting prizes, which I am sure he will soon disclose in order to "ignite" the competitive spirit [which we really neither have nor need here...]

ciao from the Italian shores.
gj

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2009 12:30:52

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to gj Michelob)

I am sorry to hear about your condition and the droping out ...but dont worry, ul be entering challenges in no time :-)

quote:

I am sorry to have insisted on delaying the deadline to accomodate my summer schedule and now have forfeited

no problem at all, delayed date acctualy worked out good..it was nice to have a litlle breather from challenges..we were doing one after another

good luck with the operation and let us know how it went...make sure u draw an "x" on the finger that needs the operation ...(cause they cant ask you wich once once u under

).... i have nightmares of 5 italian doctors standing around arguing in Italian and screaming.." Why didnt you ask him wich one before you gave him the anestetic

ba fangul

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2009 17:29:38

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Munin)

Hi Munin,

quote:

how the hell do I know which chord to play at which point of the cante?

By following the words to know which line of verse is being sung. At any given point, the singer's notes determine the chords, but in a more general sense the series of chords is almost always going to be one of a few variations on a single pattern. The chords that Jason mentioned are the ones most often used in these variations.

In blues, the V chord (a G chord in C blues) creates maximum harmonic tension (it makes you want to hear the guitar go back to C). In this kind of flamenco (Phrygian), you can think of the II chord (B flat por medio, C por granaína, G por Levante, etc.) this way, because it "wants" to resolve to the tonic (the I chord: A por medio, B por granaína, F sharp por Levante, etc.)

So you have to know what line of verse the singer is singing. If there are three lines of verse, the II chord might be used in the first line, it's almost never used in the second line, and it will "always" be used in the third line. For four-line verse, you're "never" going to use the II chord in the third line. It's logical to save that moment of maximum harmonic tension for the end.

Hope you see what I mean!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 12 2009 23:13:55

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
Apparently I am suffering from a rather common calcification of the –in lay terms- tracks were tendons run, resulting in a painfully “clicking” finger.

Actually my both "I" fingers feel more and more stiff each month. Its a slow development, but comparing to other fingers, it becomes obvious. They also "click" alot more than, say 2 years ago. The doctors say its nothing serious... i wonder when im going to be operated

Get well soon!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2009 1:23:18

duende

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Joined: Dec. 15 2003

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 13 2009 11:35:54

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 13 2009 7:38:18

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

I've been listening to Caracol, and I stumbled upon his version of the second letra (in 'Los pasitos que yo doy')...
It would be cool to know who else sang it and where.

edit:
Ok, i've got another one: Tomas Pavon (Tengo el gusto tan colmao)

Another one: Beni de Cadiz (En la casita de juguete)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2009 1:53:06

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Got it, thank you Florian

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2009 4:54:25

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

have nightmares of 5 italian doctors standing around arguing in Italian and screaming.." Why didnt you ask him wich one before you gave him the anestetic ba fangul "

So nice to enjoy some Florian’s humor. Thank you, Amigos. I have limited access to internet, and after writing a few remarks and patiently chasing ForoFlamenco, it quickly disappears from my screen I am looking forward to hearing these recordings. I had started jotting down a few lines and would love to see how it should be done, by the greater musicians here.

A big hug y’all.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2009 5:19:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

make sure u draw an "x" on the finger that needs the operation ...(cause they cant ask you wich once once u under ).... i have nightmares of 5 italian doctors standing around arguing in Italian and screaming.." Why didnt you ask him wich one before you gave him the anestetic ba fangul "

A friend of mine had the same problem..

Unfortunately it involved Testicular Cancer, in which he had to have one removed....

Luckily though, before he "went under" he had a chance to hear the two surgeons argue over which one it was.

(I actually had the same problem, with doctors unsure which lung it was they had to insert a camera into for inspection. ...understandable... these are busy guys.)

Anyway, to their amazement, he got up off the table and walked away, telling them that no way was he getting back on until they had sorted it out.

True story.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2009 10:25:43

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

If this challenge is going to be worth anything. We should have the same possibilities. Meaning that we should have easy acces to the same material.

So as long as the longer version is not easily available to everyone, it should not be accepted for the challenge. There should be a link to the material on page 1 first post. Thats my opinion. Square but fair.

So what are the rules?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2009 0:31:05