RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Yeah, obviously Spain has a history of violence and repression towards Jews and Gypsies.
I know there is still a fair amount of antisemitism in Spain.
But what country doesn't have a history of violence and repression towards SOME people.
I'm not try to make historical or moral judgements and that wasn't what my question was.

I'm just not sure I understand the meaning of this letra.

Why would you deny your suffering if they burned your clothes?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 11:50:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I'm just not sure I understand the meaning of this letra.

Why would you deny your suffering if they burned your clothes?

I think it maybe means that you won't deny your faith or beliefs even under duress or torture.(?)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 12:11:51

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

Félix de Lola and Jason McGuire

OMG… I, of all people, am speechless and cannot find the words to thank you, Félix de Lola and Jason McGuire, for this wonderful opportunity. I had never had so much fun playing the guitar than now as I am chasing after Felix’ spell-casting voice.

Felix, for the little this may matter to you, I never enjoyed Cante, but I am afraid I am incurably and irreversibly in love with it now, after studying the file you were kind enough to record for this “concurso”. Will you give me more information about you and your recordings. You have acquired an obsessive fan, now.

Un cantante divino!

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 13:02:55

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks for this opportunity. It will be the hardest thing i have ever done, thats for sure. Since i basically have never accompanied.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 14:18:30

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to NormanKliman)

Thanks Norman for info on the letras. That is wonderful and something we can all learn from. These letras get passed on from teacher to student and they take on changes in melody and it really goes to show the freedom in which artists have in their interpretation of these traditional cantes.

My wife is Jewish and there are many Jewish people who both love and practice the art of flamenco. The meanings of these letras are rarely on the surface. Depending on how you look at it, the letra mentioning the Jews could be taken as a compliment. The Jews like the Gypsies stand their ground despite the horrible things they have been subjected to as a race. I do agree with Norman here that we shouldn't get too caught up in the tendancy of flamenco letras to be less than politically correct. They are what they are and often have double meanings.

GJ.... 2 por Medio means .... yes like you said A7 - Dminor with a capo on 2. But that is just a description to nail down a specific key the way we describe them as flamencos.
It could be played without a capo in "Tono de Granaina"..... B phrygian/Eminor or it could also be done with the capo at 7 in the key (fingered on the guitar) of E phrygian/Aminor, like a Soleares. It could be done "por Minera" with the capo on 3.

All of these would be acceptable, however I would encourage most to play it "por medio". And as Norman has given you a BIG hint.

There are passing chords that Felix has handed to you on a silver platter that are "outside" the "normal everyday" chords. The thing about flamenco is though..... rarely are things done in a "normal everyday" manner. One very important concept in accompanying and flamenco in general is to make each moment as special as you possibly can. Remember its okay to do things in a simple way. If the participants all do some research and check out a lot of Solea and "solea por bulerias" videos and recordings you will be rewarded with inspiration when it comes time to deliver your performance. Serve the cante before you serve yourself.

Much respect and admiration to you Norman for the wonderful contribution.

Also another note to GJ....... that is the most wonderful compliment I think a singer from Spain could ever wish to hear. Felix is out talking to a restaurant manager about a gig for us and searching for a "day job" to make ends meet while things are tough here. I will direct him to your words when he gets home and he will reply to you, probably in Spanish so get ready to translate....

J

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 15:00:39

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

Sing me up- I mean sign me up!

Big, big thanks to Felix and Jason for the recording; Norman for the cante nerding; Florian for the facilitating (and anyone else I may have missed).

Jason, at the risk of overtaxing your generosity, would you be into knocking out your own version to be revealed after the judging? Since you have so much first hand experience working with Felix and know his cante, and know what he likes/needs from an accompanist, it would be really helpful to listen to a here’s-what-I-would-do example to compare to all the entries. This would be a really great supplement to your always-helpful and spot-on written comments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 15:29:00

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to srshea)

I will do that. I will do it sometime before the end of the challenge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 15:50:40

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

GJ.... 2 por Medio means .... yes like you said A7 - Dminor with a capo on 2. But that is just a description to nail down a specific key the way we describe them as flamencos.
It could be played without a capo in "Tono de Granaina"..... B phrygian/Eminor or it could also be done with the capo at 7 in the key (fingered on the guitar) of E phrygian/Aminor, like a Soleares. It could be done "por Minera" with the capo on 3.

and capo on 5th with the tarantos chords

i am on my way out to a workshop all day but i will update all the info above when i get back...whos in, whos judging, am thinking around 17 of August for the deadline

I sent Romerito a pm about this and i see him at the top ...hope you join us for this one amigo..

I have asked Ricardo if he could help us judge...he wins enough stuff

i got a new strategy...keep everyone good occupied with a job to do

Henrik wouldnt you be happier judging ?

i am kidding, hes got a few things on atm but he will help judge, thanks Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 16:14:54

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

GJ.... 2 por Medio means .... yes like you said A7 - Dminor with a capo on 2. But that is just a description to nail down a specific key the way we describe them as flamencos.
It could be played without a capo in "Tono de Granaina"..... B phrygian/Eminor or it could also be done with the capo at 7 in the key (fingered on the guitar) of E phrygian/Aminor, like a Soleares. It could be done "por Minera" with the capo on 3.

and 5th fret in tarantos key

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 16:16:26

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

Also another note to GJ....... that is the most wonderful compliment I think a singer from Spain could ever wish to hear. Felix is out talking to a restaurant manager about a gig for us and searching for a "day job" to make ends meet while things are tough here. I will direct him to your words when he gets home and he will reply to you, probably in Spanish so get ready to translate....

I am so pleased by your reply Jason. Is "out here" San Francisco? If so let me know of any gigs you are playing, I would love to meet you in person and shake Felix' hands.

Kozz, ‘glad to have back.

Norman, thank you for such comprehensive review of the lyrics and their structure. A fine metaphor that of the comic duo… I will tickle the singer with enough questions and replies to help him deliver his punch lines.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 16:49:21

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire
I will do that.

Nice!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 16:51:44

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to gj Michelob)

Okay, I have made my own video accompanying the challenge material with Felix's cante. Should I send it to an impartial judge or someone else who isn't participating in the challenge? Then they could show it after the winner is announced. Who should I send it too? Keep it myself? The video file isn't too big. 23mb.

Let me know what to do?

J

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 21:10:25

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to srshea)

we got that delay thing happening again, u cant see the last messsage until someone posts something else

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 21:18:07

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

I have it for safekeeping. And no I'm not open to bribes

I get to hear it first!! Why do you guys think I do all this admin stuff??

Kidding. I do it for the team spirit.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 22:53:12

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

we shouldn't get too caught up in the tendancy of flamenco letras to be less than politically correct. They are what they are and often have double meanings.

Exactly, and in this case, it may just be borrowing from another verse that mentions the practice of burning the clothing of tuberculosis victims for sanitary reasons:

Nadie se arrime a mi cama
que estoy ético de pena
el que muere de mi mal
hasta la ropa le queman

Don't anybody come to my bedside
because I'm sick with tuberculosis
When you die from what I've got
they even burn your clothes

Nice one, eh?

Chacón recorded it with Montoya in 1913. The other one about Jews is also very old, and it may be based on some historical fact, but it may also just be borrowing the strong imagery. They're concepts that have been around for a long time in popular culture and singers sometimes draw on them freely.

Anyway, I'm sure Félix could have told you most of the same stuff that I've mentioned, and a whole lot more. Just like guitarists have falsetas, singers have a repertoire of letras (that they mix and match with cantes), and they can usually tell you who recorded what letra, why some work better than others in certain styles, etc.

Sorry to go on and on about this; I really don't want to derail the thread, but I'd like to address some of the racial issues because they're really non-issues.

quote:

So therefore they had a common experience they could relate to even though religiously and culturally they were different

Ron, we'll never know, but that's probably right. Most Spaniards will acknowledge that a lot of different kinds of people ended up blending into Spanish society, but many will eventually object to one thing or another if you talk about it too much, which makes it a delicate subject. In Jerez, it hardly makes sense to talk about gypsies and non-gypsies because each has a good amount of the other (and Jewish, IMO). Yet, that very statement would bother some people for reasons that I'd rather not get into but you can probably imagine. I mean, for us it's like learning history and maybe for them it's like people talking about their grandparents.

quote:

I know there is still a fair amount of antisemitism in Spain.

Andy, I've heard about Spain being perceived that way in the US and maybe elsewhere, and I really have to disagree. Again, I'd rather not go into it here on this thread.

I'd be happy to discuss any of these things in private if anyone has any questions. Back to the accompaniment challenge!!!

Count me in as a judge.

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Be here now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2009 23:59:02

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Ailsa)

Norman when your message dosent come up u have to writte again to send it up...its always 1 message behind lol

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 1:16:19

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to NormanKliman)

trust me it's much worse in eastern europe...

btw, i'm in :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 7:26:09

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

Andy, I've heard about Spain being perceived that way in the US and maybe elsewhere, and I really have to disagree. Again, I'd rather not go into it here on this thread.

It's really not important..I'll take your word for it. We have plenty of neo-nazi and KKK groups here in the US, it's a fringe element in any culture.
My question really wasn't racially based, I just was trying to understand the meaning of the letra. Thanks for your detailed explanations.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 8:43:33

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 8:47:31

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

Thanks, Flo. The suspense is kind of fun

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Be here now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 11:02:09

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

I'm not 'in', but I do want to add my note of appreciation to Felix and Jason for the recording, and to Norman for the supplementary educational material; even us rudimentary hackers can learn something from experimenting with the cante track and reading these discussions. Thanks, and keep up the good work!

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 18 2009 14:10:35

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

we shouldn't get too caught up in the tendancy of flamenco letras to be less than politically correct. They are what they are and often have double meanings.

Exactly, and in this case, it may just be borrowing from another verse that mentions the practice of burning the clothing of tuberculosis victims for sanitary reasons:

Nadie se arrime a mi cama
que estoy ético de pena
el que muere de mi mal
hasta la ropa le queman

Yes, the letras are often ambiguous. Just like the old English term for TB „consumption“ connotates being consumed from within, so the phrase „ético de pena“ can be understood metaphorically (ético comes from héctico = hectic fever).

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 9:19:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I think the second verse is pretty unique. I love that descending slide in the melody. I think I've figured out the right chords...now the job is to make "every moment special" as Jason wisely put it.

Great challenge.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 10:14:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

HOw do you guys feel about changing our Deadline to 31st of September

it makes sence for many reasons..

Everyone goes on Holidays around August..
Michelob would very much like to be involved in the challenge but he has to go to Itally to attend to his sick mom...considering everything hes done for us in other challenges in the past i think its nice to try and include him and try to accomodate him under special circumstances ..if possible

And theres alot happening atm, Ruben.....2 more challenges...I agree that too much at the same time is too much...Alot of the challenges end with not even a week between them..

What do you guys think ? I dont wanna make this decision alone ..Are you all ok with it ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 21:33:53

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

I'm cool with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 21:36:25

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

Greate thank you Jason ...plus i love it ...alot of time to really synk our teeth into it...take this as an oportunity to listen to a million solea por bulerias from a million diff people

not make this just about the chords but about a close look at everything about accomp solea por bulerias

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 21:38:42

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Florian)

You guys get all that time and I did mine...................... within 24 hours. Its not fair!

Honestly, mine is there for reference. I didn't try to make any bold artistic statements. Just a straight ahead accompaniment.

I am sure we will have some really well done entries for this. It will be fun to see what people come up with.

The winner should recieve Ruben's orange shimono.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 22:00:14

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

31 september works for me.

i cant figure out if the judges want to hear a trad accompaniment or if one is aloud
to go nuts

...with the chords

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 22:18:06

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to duende)

quote:

cant figure out if the judges want to hear a trad accompaniment or if one is aloud
to go nuts ...with the chords

I know...thats the hardest decision...going safe/trad or minimalistic or whatever

I guess the main thing is that this is about the singing and not about u ...the less u stand out the better...if u stand out too much you failed to accompany imo...but that dosent mean u cant have your moments in between

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 23:03:58

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: The Cante accompaniment challeng... (in reply to duende)

quote:

i cant figure out if the judges want to hear a trad accompaniment or if one is aloud
to go nuts ...with the chords

Knowing when and where to do what is part of being a good accompanist. You don't want to go nuts just because you can. If the the singing inspires you to be nuts, then being nuts is the right thing for to do. Working so long on it could be a detriment, but it is something we can still all learn from. Spend the summer studying and things will come together. Don't decide just yet your approach.

A guitarist can stand out, but it should be in support of the singer. Try and enhance the emotion of the vocal performance.... don't change it, intensify what is already there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2009 23:23:50