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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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mrMagenta
Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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The singer-dancer-guitarist hierarchy is everywhere.
That flamenco is gravitating around cante is natural, I'm not questioning that in any way. Voice is the original instrument; as direct as it gets. We pay extra attention when sound is coming out of a mouth. And I'm not saying all instruments should alternate in playing the same kind of front-role.
I guess I'm just finding it hard to cope with the idea of one artists inspiration having precedence over the others. It's not as if any of the disciplines is more shallow than the next, is it?
It is great art to accompany a singer, selflessly. Probably more so that it is given credit. Still, what's keeping from just handing around the torch, it will come back...
No one would cut a letra from a singer, or the escobilla from under the dancer.
That said, I realize that certain forms/traditions make it easier for people to get together and function musically in a spontaneous way.
Just don't print your name larger out of tradition, because of the status of your chosen discipline.. to me, that's disrespectful, whatever the marketpeople may say.
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Date Dec. 17 2006 18:27:58
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
Despite being a guitarist i do get bored with overindulgence in guitaristic masturbation with nothing to say, im sorry, but thats how i feel.
I enjoy when singing and dancing are involved a whole lot more and i have no agenda with saying this.
I think I get more irritated by a bad singer than a bad guitarist. In some cases, there are competent guitarists who also sing, and sometimes sing BETTER than the singer they are accompanying. But they still do the job they are supposed to do. Accompanying is not so hard if you respect the singer and let him lead you. Singers who mess up and blame the guitarist, that is not fair. But guitarists giving wrong chords or out of compas or rushing, that is not good either. In my experience though, the good singers and good guitarists always work together and have a mutual respect. It is only when the levels are not matched that the "ego" stuff becomes a problem.
If the guitarist plays a fancy falseta and gets more applause than the singer, some might feel the guitarist is a "show off", or overplaying. Well I think it means the singer better start putting more feeling into his singing, and not just act like he deserves something. Just because you know lots of letras, or where born with the right voice, doesn't mean you are automatic the star. You too have to put effort and feeling into your performance, just like a guitarist or dancer.
And this ties into the other arguements I read earlier. Cante, toque, Baile, all work together, but can all exist on their own and still be very "flamenco". A footwork solo is only rhythm, but it is VERY flamenco if done well. A "Rondeña" guitar solo has nothing to do with the cante "Rondeña", but can be very deep, jondo, profound and "flamenco" if played well. And of course any Cante palo seco. I go as far to say even just palmas by themselves are "flamenco" too, if they are giving the specific flamenco compas and "aire". It is very easy to say any ONE of these elements can also be done poorly and considered "not flamenco" at all.
Of course all elements together are the really beauty of a flamenco ensemble, but for me I prefer if each element is very strong. If only guitar and Cante, sure the guitar is just strumming chords, simple, but it is WAY more inspiring to see a maestro of guitar and a maestro of singing work together. All the top regarded accompanists, solo albums or not, are surely VIRTUOSO players. They accompany well because they love the singing, not because they "know their place".
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 18 2006 15:47:37
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
Cante, toque, Baile, all work together, but can all exist on their own and still be very "flamenco". A footwork solo is only rhythm, but it is VERY flamenco if done well. A "Rondeña" guitar solo has nothing to do with the cante "Rondeña", but can be very deep, jondo, profound and "flamenco" if played well. And of course any Cante palo seco. I go as far to say even just palmas by themselves are "flamenco" too, if they are giving the specific flamenco compas and "aire".
I totally agree, i dont mind sologuitar at all when its done well. I just prefer when all parts are present and i never meant to say that solo guitar isnt just as valid expression as any other part of flamenco.
But if the guitar gets too detached from the forms and estethics of the core it easily becomes pretty guitar fantasies that are more about personal expression than flamenco.
But from a musical point of view i have no problem appreciating good guitar music, flamenco or not.
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Date Dec. 18 2006 16:07:46
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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I really should have done the little white boxes, but it takes so much time....I've put multiple quote marks about everything that's previous text, yours or mine, and apologize for possible confusion....there's just no time to do it right...
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“””It was you asked if words could change the compás.
No, I never asked. I was trying to point out the the melody and rhythm was more or less the same thing.”””
I remember your asking, which is why I answered. I would normally cite your words, but without a search function it’s too time-consuming to dig back that far. It’s my fault for letting a few days go by, sorry.
Cante is not melody in the pop music sense. A singer hears a base chord, or drone, or mother tone, or colchón, and weaves melodies based on traditional “markers” which might be the harmonic resolutions, or characteristic melisma at certain spots (the first line of soleá de Frijones for example), traditionally sustained notes, traditionally sharped tones at specific spots, etc. Within the limitations of those markers, which are what let us distinguish one cante from another, anything goes.
”””About Calchon/drone. Well, there would be no point for the guitarist to change chords at all, if the accompanysit's job was to simply supply a drone. That is what a drone is, the fundamental tonic. “””
You might call it a semi-drone. Cante used to be accompanied with two chords por medio, and two chords por arriba. Today every passing chord imaginable is employed, but soleá is still soleá. Even with three or four chords it’s a drone effect because the singer’s notes are not linked to the guitarist’s chords except superficially...it’s the resolutions that need to coincide. The nature of cante makes it impossible to be sung in unison with more than one voice, unless a specific melody is agreed upon and kept to. Imagine an entire football stadium of cantaores cheering on their team in unison por soleá...it’s unthinkable!
“””Modal music is based on this. Modal music, or any music with drones implies NO HARMONY or NO CHORDS.”””
The singer’s melody is what harmonizes, with or without additional chords.
“””My point is that a palmero could "find the beat"when hearing cante, just as easy (if the palmero understands the melody) as the singer could sing to palmas that had already started.”””
Without visual cues, never! Not without imposing his will on the singer, who might possibly follow. This is the system you seem to be describing, and I have a feeling your singers have become accustomed to it. I too would follow a guitarist imposing his compás, if only to keep the final product listenable.
“””Likewise, a guitarist can pick up on the rhythm of the singer, without first having to see his or her foot. I say as easy for Solea as Alegrias.”””
Please stop talking about the foot, that came from someone who didn’t understand what I wrote. There needs to be visual contact of some kind, NOT USUALLY THE SINGER’S FRICKEN FOOT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Without the singer’s indication, the guitarist or palmeros can only guess at how the singer is fitting the cante at any given moment...there are infinite ways to fit cante to compás, the voice is not a percussive instrument except in the cited Cádiz cantes, which are extremely few and have limited use. The singer gets to work the compás in his or her own way because he or she is the individual producing the cante. Anything else, and you become an orchestra conductor! It’s impossible to conceive of cante as pop music with a score that everyone knows by heart. Try asking a singer to repeat what they just sang and listen to the many ways they modify what was sung only seconds before.
””” ‘The feeling inside’...but that’s the *singer’s* inside, not yours,
Sorry, but as an accompanist, I try to make that feeling "mine"too. If not, how are we EVER together?”””
The feeling reaches you through the singer’s compás, at least that’s how it works in Spain (I know you’re sensitive about being American, but the system has nothing to do with nationality, I’m American and play by Spanish rules). Again, I suspect you’ve set up a different, though viable system with your circle of regulars.
Until the band leader says “a one, a two...” the various musicians in a group cannot get on the same track. In flamenco, the singer is the band leader, except of course when dancers mount specific choreographies. The guitarist is the third step in the hierarchy, and his or her mission is to accompany and tie together the signals received from the singer and the dancer, never the reverse. If I didn’t use the same system as everyone else, I wouldn’t have been able to survive musically in Spain for thirty-six years.
”””cante has evolved in such a way that the singer commands.
I have never said the guitarist leads. My point always was that the guitar follows, follows the RHYTHM of the singer. And the tones. "base cante"or "alegrias", does not matter which. But the guitarist has to KNOW what it is the singer is doing rhythmically. “””
You cannot possibly know that unless you have a direct link to the singer’s brain. This link is provided by visual contact in ways you may not even be aware of: breathing, closing of the eyes at a certain point, a tilt of the head... All this, assuming the singer is not doing palmas, which is the best indication of the compás they’re doing.
“Base cante” and “alegrías” are indeed different. Cantiñas however works like a base cante. Alegrías does not. Nor modern guajiras, many tangos... Some cantes have a set compás, but most do not. It’s no accident cante has such tremendous potential, and this is the reason the existing system shouldn’t be tampered with, even if the resulting music is nice.
“”” There are lots of indicators in the voice, lots of guitarists can sing too. Surely the better accompanists can at least sing stuff in rhythm, even if they don't have a nice voice. “””
Plenty of guitarists sing, and good accompanists know cante well. When they sing they are then dictating the compás which others must follow. There is no escaping this.
”””I admit there is a lot of helpful clues to SEE in the body language of the singer, perhaps the foot, but mainly the face. But ultimately it is what is comming out of the mouth, the MELODY that dictates what the accompanist does.”””
This is something you’ve convinced yourself of because singers are following your concept of compás. Like I said, it can be done, and inexperienced singers will think they have to tolerate it, or perhaps not even be aware of it.
”””You think you’re being a good samaritan when you help or fill out or correct the singer’s compás, but that can only by justified with inexperienced singers.
Then what would it be, compas wise, that an "experienced"singer has over an inexperienced one? “””
No serious singer tolerates a guitarist who fits compás according to his own concept. They may not say anything, but they’ll avoid having to sing with you if there are other options.
“””Especially, if singers are free to interpret as they like with "base cante"? For the record, I tend to not do that, but was just giving an example. If there is a "wrong"way to sing rhythmically, then there must be a "right way", that is my point.”””
There are infinite wrong ways, and just as many right ways. You think your concept of how the cante should fit is the “right way”, but it’s only one way. Some foreign guitarists, even professionals, think lines of cante have to begin at the beginning of a compás, and end at the end of a compás, and will only accompany accordingly, considering any other arrangement “wrong”. This is an extreme example of course.
”””You keep bringing up the metronome "test", but that is regarding TEMPO only, just a part of what compas and rhythm means.”””
Obviously, but I trust that when you realize the flux of what you thought was “steady” rhythm, you’ll understand how compás follows along...first comes a beat, then comes compás.
“””I never said the guitarist imposes his rhythm to the singer, I am saying the singer can even FLUX as you say, the tempo, based on the RHYTHM of his melody. THAT is something the guitarist needs to understand and READ, in order to NOT impose his own personal tempo. Final point being the Cante has RHYTHM that is felt from inside and expressed outward in the melody.”””
If it’s felt on the singer’s inside, how can you claim to read it without a visual clue? The only possible reason is that you believe compás (like rhythm) is an absolute value. The metronome will show you otherwise.
””Blind guitarists can be followed but not follow.
This gets the crux of our differing point of view. “””
I wasn’t expressing any point of view, just describing an existing situation.
“””I admit that there are helpful things to observe visually, especially the face, but the melody itself, the notes and rhythm coming out of the singer's mouth, is the main thing. “””
Compás is not merely helpful, it’s everything.
“””A blind guitarist who understands cante COULD possibely accompany better than a seeing guitarist who does not know it as well, and just keeps time by watching a singers foot. “””
No blind guitarist can accompany cante. A blind guitarist can play chords and compás which a kindly singer can adjust to, and to all observers, everything sounds like business as usual. However the singer knows he or she is adapting to the guitarist’s concept every step of the way. It’s no big deal, but not something you want to do *all* the time. I’ll have instant coffee if it’s the only way to get my caffeine, but I’d much rather have fresh-made.
“””Likewise a blind singer can follow a metronomic guitarist's chords, without needing to see his foot. I am sure there are some excellent blind accompanists around. And I think it is a very unfair general statement to make.”””
Now you’re dictating the chords as well as the rhythm...you’ve really got them singers under your control :-).
The existing system works, and it’s neither fair nor unfair, just the state of affairs that resulted after decades of hit and miss, and for which I cannot take credit nor be blamed.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 20 2006 12:15:01
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
It’s unfortunate guitarist’s names are often overlooked. This is an unrelated issue.
I think it shows VERY well how things are,
Anders, what I meant was, one thing is the musical dynamic that makes cante tick, and another, unrelated thing is how shows are announced. The former cannot be changed without changing the nature of flamenco, the latter is a matter of etiquette that can easily be changed if people so desire.
Nevertheless, people are far more interested in who's singing at a cante recital than who's playing. When Paco uses cante as embellishment for his playing, it's more important he's Paco, than whether the singer is Duquende, Potito or Rafael de Utrera.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 20 2006 16:12:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
You cannot possibly know that unless you have a direct link to the singer’s brain. This link is provided by visual contact in ways you may not even be aware of: breathing, closing of the eyes at a certain point, a tilt of the head... All this, assuming the singer is not doing palmas, which is the best indication of the compás they’re doing.
“Base cante” and “alegrías” are indeed different. Cantiñas however works like a base cante. Alegrías does not. Nor modern guajiras, many tangos... Some cantes have a set compás, but most do not. It’s no accident cante has such tremendous potential, and this is the reason the existing system shouldn’t be tampered with, even if the resulting music is nice.
I get what you are saying, as always, but I just think you don't really get it. Its like on one hand you say the guitarist follows compas of cante, then the next you say there is no way to know what that compas is. Only way is to see the body language. Except with certain cantes as mentioned that have a more set melody. Sorry, I disagree that is all. If you want, check out the upload by DUENDE in the upload page where he had to accompany a singer with no reference of tempo. Sure it is not easy or "exact" since the singer is not metronome steady, but how is able to follow more or less the "rhythm" of the singer without any visuals? Surely you can notice the few times he was right ON and a little OFF? How do you know he is off or on, without seeing the singers head tilt? LOL!
For the record, I know this is not the better way to learn to accompany, but for the sake of this arguement, it shows what we are discussing, or the idea of following a melody, not body language, for compas, is valid.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=52124&p=1&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1
quote:
The feeling reaches you through the singer’s compás, at least that’s how it works in Spain (I know you’re sensitive about being American, but the system has nothing to do with nationality, I’m American and play by Spanish rules). Again, I suspect you’ve set up a different, though viable system with your circle of regulars.
I never said otherwise about the singers compas, just how exactly the compas is coming to you. I too watch body language, yet I can follow that AND the melody, and I can tell where the compas is from both. I don't see why you can't accept that for some cantes but others you can??? It reads to me you just don't hear the rhythm in the melody of some cantes. I mean bulerias de jerez with no palmas, YOU wouldn't know where the compas is from only hearing the melody???? Then too bad I guess, I can't argue further.
I am not "sensitive" about being who I am. But it is quite clear you are, since you often feel a need to point out you play by "rules" of Spain and keep thinking that other foreignors, like yourself, can't possibley know the real spanish stuff like you do, especially if they reside elsewhere or disagree with you. When I am doing "flamenco" with Spaniards, Gitanos or Andaluz, or anyone else, I play by the rules of "flamenco". Don't make assumptions about what you think about my "circle" of regulars might be, because you don't know, do you? You are getting borderline personal, but also I think your constant need to bring up how foreignors may or may not "percieve" the rules of flamenco, can be a bit offensive to others.
All I am saying is cante has rhythm in the melody, and you have blamed my "mistake" on my being a foreignor, and worse, I have actually developed some weird "system" for accompanying only a handful of singers. Sorry, I don't get it.
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 20 2006 17:42:45
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. 
. The bigheaded thing was from another post. 
) and to me, its a total lack of respect. Besides that I find it very annoying that guitarist are never mentioned. We are many who would go to a show to see and hear a good guitarist accompany hopefully a good singer. I just dont understand why the things are the way they are. I know its history, that guitarists wasn´t valued so much, but time has proven that its a good idea to change history some times. 