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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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Guest
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to duende)
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quote:
Look at it this way - everyone knows a 12 bar blues in E, right? I bet you could jam along a 12 bar blues with somone and you'd know exactly were you were at any time, and you'd know exactly when to return to the E and start again. Would you need to count the beats or the bars? Nope. It such a familiar rhythm structure you don't need to and in fact it would take away the fun if you did (and imagine trying to improvise a solo and count at the same time. Ouch)
Bulerias - same difference.
I've heard and participated in I dont know how many bluesjams, where everything fell apart, because someone goofed it. 
But I do agree: Bulerias - same difference. 
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 17 2004 13:57:00
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Tempo is a fundamental component to any rhythm
You're using different definitions from the ones I'm using (which are the only ones I know).
I'm using the word tempo to refer to speed. Daniel Méndez and Rafael de Utrera do siguiriyas faster than the average bulerias, but the rhythm never reminds you of bulerías, only siguiriyas. That's because the rhythm, aka compás, or accents are unchanged.
This is why with no change of tempo you can move from bulerías to tangos....by changing the rhythm (compás, accents). You can do this fairly easily in bulerías because of the crazy twos that weave through it all the time. Conversely, you can't morph from verdiales into tangos because verdiales is in threes with no overlapping twos.
I'm using the word "cycle" to refer to one complete unit without repeats. Therefore a cycle of three contains 1-2-3, while a cycle of two is 1-2. Einstein's ruler gets shorter as it approaches the speed of light, but in compás, threes and twos are different animals at any speed.
Notice how quickly a driving bulerías changes into a syrupy waltz just by removing the twos, with no change of tempo.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 17 2004 23:51:43
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Guest
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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So Estela,
quote:
Notice how quickly a driving bulerías changes into a syrupy waltz just by removing the twos, with no change of tempo.
When this happens, and it does often in guitar falsetas, also by very wellknown and respected players, what do you do with you 2 count bulería compas.
I do not ask you in order to argue, but simply understand. I follow you a very long way, but exactly when it comes to these falsetas in three (12-3-6-9), I need to find another way of feeling the compás.
Saludos
Anders
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Date Dec. 18 2004 7:33:17
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Notice how quickly a driving bulerías changes into a syrupy waltz just by removing the twos, with no change of tempo.
When this happens, and it does often in guitar falsetas, also by very wellknown and respected players, what do you do with you 2 count bulería compas.
Hi Anders... I'm baffled by some people's having referred to an "argument"...must have to do with the internet medium . Bulerías compás is something we all partake of at will and as we please, like hors d'oeuvres at a cocktail party. I noticed that one of the hors d'oeuvres is more satisfying than the others and the taste goes with everything. That's the binary compás of bulerías, and it's no pet theory. Just last night I was at the Villamarta theater for the Christmas "zambomba". Thirty-two people, I counted twice, seated on stage in a semicircle....professionals like el Torta, Chiquetete, el Mono, Fernando Moreno...fat housewives who sing and dance at family fiestas...assorted youngsters and oldsters... Jerez is famous for the flamenco rivalry between neighborhoods and their different ways of feeling the compás, and at least three important neighborhoods were represented. Throughout the two-hour show which was about 80% bulerías (the rest, standard threes which are common for zambomba) all 32 people were tapping their feet in twos like a little compás army. I've noticed the same thing at fiestas in Morón and Utrera.
Sorry for the long paragraph...I just want to make clear I have no argument with people who are unhappy with the binary compás of bulerías since last time Andy got so feverish about it. I'm glad Richard is able to present another facet which some people might find helpful even though it doesn't jive with anything I've experienced personally.
Your question about avoiding syrupy threes is interesting. It's something that happens within the mind of listeners/observers...there's no way to demonstrate a guitarist stopped feeling twos during a section of threes, but no matter how strongly he might be *feeling* twos, naked threes send a powerful audio message.
Extending threes in bulerías over more than one compás is usually done for a specific effect, and it's a valuable option. But the effect can be lost when there's nothing to juxtapose twos (or twelves) such as palmas, a dancer or other percussion. Nearly all bulerias exits for dancers are in threes because the effect is so exciting, almost jarring.
All this fades away without the rhythmic juxtaposition of twos, and that's when the syrup starts to flow.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 18 2004 9:02:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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Anders, that is a good question. I think your waltzy 3/8 or 6/8 falsetas can be felt like you said (12,3,6,9). But it is not wrong, and can be a cool synchopation, to feel them AGAINST the quicker pulse, (12,2,4,6,8,10) or what I call two bars of 3/4. That is what Zata is saying should be the fundamental under it ALL if it is to be "bulerias". When you can easily do either one, then you have got it, IMO.
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 18 2004 9:15:44
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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R: Um, tempo is bpm, which IS "speed".
Not sure what you are getting at there.
Different terms for "speed" (velocity, tempo, brio, bpm, mph, rpm...) can't change the fact that speed and compás (pulse, accents, rhythm...) are not the same thing.
R: Anyway, yes, you can morph rhythms
because the accents are different
Rhythms can only morph unclumsily when the accents are the same. That why bulerías felt in twos slides right into tangos.
R: Verdiales does not really work, not
because of "2's", but because the tempo's
are fundamentally different.
Do an experiment. Play verdiales as fast and as slow as you possibly can. Notice how it never threatens to feel like tangos. That's because it's only unit is threes. Now play bulerías as fast or as slow as you possibly can. If you know about tango crossover, you'll see how easy it is to slip from bulerias into tangos.
R: Like in the bulerias/tangos example,
because the quarter note remains the
same you can also morph a Solea escobilla
into a bulerias rhythm w/ no break or
change of rhythm. Why? Because 3/4 is
fundamental as a beat. Tempo is crucial here.
This is an unrelated issue. Bulerías and soleá have the same basic structure, so by flipping a mental switch you can go into double or half time (relative to what went just before). For all practical purpuses this is a theatrical contrivance and something you would never see happen in a setting where a group of people are keeping compás in a non-intellectual way.
R: Maybe this will make sense. Your "twos"
of bulerias can be felt the same speed as
your "1-2-3" of a Solea escobilla. Does that
make sense? Do you see what I am going
on about w/ this 3/4 beat?
I can also whistle Dixie at the same tempo with no fear of slipping into bulerías. It's all in the compás.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 18 2004 9:27:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
Bulerías and soleá have the same basic structure, so by flipping a mental switch you can go into double or half time (relative to what went just before). For all practical purpuses this is a theatrical contrivance and something you would never see happen in a setting where a group of people are keeping compás in a non-intellectual way.
Yes, but you don't need to "flip a mental switch" (unless you think 12's) because to move into bulerias, nothing about the beat feeling changes. You don't have to double time your foot tap, it can stay the same for both, if you are tapping "twos" for bulerias. Why? Because the twos ARE the 3/4 beat. The only thing that changes, if you are a guitarist, is maybe how you move chords. No need to make it intellectual. In fact, the first time guitarists encounter this accompanying the baile, it just seems to "happen" naturally, in a "non intellectual way". Later the guitarist might think, "that was weird, how did that happen", if they are used to counting or thinking in 12's. But if you get the idea of a simple slow 3/4 groove, it is not really much to bust your brain about.
Anyway this is gettin old. So I leave it at this: you are right in your meaning of two's being fundamental, but as a music reader this should be called 3/4. The other feel is 6/8, and it is not wrong to feel that in bulerias either IMO.
Happy Holidays
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 18 2004 23:25:52
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Anyway this is gettin old. So I leave it at this: you are right in your meaning of two's being fundamental, but as a music reader this should be called 3/4.
That's a mighty strange way to try end a discussion. To most people this will sound self-evident: twos are most definitely not threes. One-two. One-two-three. Makes no difference if it's three quarters, three eighths or three apples, nor is the speed of the apples relevant. If you planned on taking a long weekend but your boss said "no way, you better show up on time Monday morning" you'd protest soon enough, and if he said "ok, leave it at this...on Saturday and Sunday count every two hours as three and you'll end up with a 72-hour weekend, 3 days instead of 2" I can imagine what you'd tell him .
The solea to bulería issue is, as I wrote, nothing more than a theatrical intellectual contrivance that doubles or halves the tempo of identical rhythms, and is something that cannot happen spontaneously among people who know compás. It is quite unrelated to the juxtaposition, simultaneity or overlapping of twos and threes in bulerías.
Try the verdiales-bulerías experiment I suggested previously. If you get that going, you won't even need time signatures.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 19 2004 2:47:59
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
twos are most definitely not threes. One-two. One-two-three. Makes no difference if it's three quarters, three eighths or three apples, nor is the speed of the apples relevant.
Do you know how to read time signatures? If not what are you argueing about? Just listen for a second. If a half compas is 6 counts/claps, and we call them "eighth notes", and you tap your foot in "twos" or quarter notes, how many TIMES does your foot tap in a half compas phrase? In other words, 6 counts, divided into "2's" by way of foot tap=THREE BEATS! If you tap in "3's" than you have TWO beats , the way you feel a 6/8 bar. Is there anything more fundamental (rhythmically smaller) to bulerias than the half compas phrase? You can't have "twos" unless you have at least 3 of em. You can't have "threes" unless you have at least 2 of em.
Escovillas of Solea and alegria often have sections of 3/4 which is slow enough to be felt as bulerias (if the subdivision is 4notes per beat). 1e&ah 2e&ah 3&. That IS bulerias. Your foot and feel is the same. It is not an intellectual game or theatrics, unless you think about the 12 count system. If you don't, it is simply a 3/4 groove.
This time I am done......no really!
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 19 2004 18:29:15
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Ok, Bulerias is in 2/4, and 3/4 is always like a waltz no matter what tempo. Is that how you want to see it? Fine if it makes you happy.
Since you ask, bulerías is what makes me happy, and they don't let you do it unless you're in compás. Calling twos "three quarter time" may have an intellectual basis, but no practical application. As soon as the play between twos and threes is eliminated, your compás fizzles like a pinched balloon.
Consider this: even if bulerías were written in sheet music (and obviously solos are), there would be no visual evidence of twos. At best, a written note would be required. But how could it even be phrased? "Think binary" ?
Still talking about tempos is a sure sign you're not talking about the same thing. Take those verdiales (not off topic unless you're a real flamenco snob ). Compare them to malagueña (the danced variety). It takes twice as many compases of verdiales to accomodate one line of cante as it takes in malagueña because the tempos are radically different, and it's physically impossible to use the same abandolao strum because malagueña is so fast (in relative terms). Neither verdiales nor malagueña will ever slip into tangos or even bulerías because the threes, (waltz time, three quarters, three eighths or three foot-taps), are all-powerful.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 19 2004 20:07:15
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
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Miguel, sorry to seem like I am having an exclusive arguement w/ Zata. It is easy to get sucked into these things. I wish I could have just left things to my 1st and second post. Anyway, it seems like YOU get it anyway:
quote:
I already put down my response. I think I get it. You tap your foot three times, corresponding to 12, 2, 4. Then you do it again, corresponding to 6, 8, 10. You don't need to think the count, you just tap, and rely on the natural ability to do so. This works on bulerias because it's quick so there's no chance to lose track of the the three taps.
Tap your foot three times, ie, there are 3 beats, makes musical sense, vs. your 12-count stuff or just "twos" as terms. You don't need to count 12,2,4 and 6,8,10, just feel 1,2,3 and 1,2,3. I was just trying to put that stuff into musical terms that agree w/ what Estela says, but man it sounds confusing reading through it. Sorry.
Jamey, don't think too much about it. One could just as easily come on and say "hey don't count or tap, just FEEL it man!". Ultimatley it IS as easy as that. But how do you get it? By riding in the car and trying to sing with gitanos giving you the compas? Everyone is different. Some need twos, others only make sense of 12,2,4,6,8,10. For me, 1,2,3 is easy. That is all I am saying man. Once you see it different ways you will say, Oh man, what a pointless arguement that was, it is all the same!
Ricardo
PS, I WAS trying to push this thing to 11 pages, but I am gettin bored LOL!
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Date Dec. 20 2004 5:27:44
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Jamey)
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quote:
After reading through this, I don't think you two (Zata, Ricardo) are talking about the same thing. Zata appears to be talking about a rhythmic patter or sequence, whereas Ricardo is essentially talking about timing signatures with a 12 count applied to it (to accommodate bars and measures?).
Nothing regarding tempos is in play in what I'm describing, and certainly there's no 12-count. As I wrote above: "even if bulerías were written in sheet music (and obviously solos are), there would be no visual evidence of twos". That alone says Ricardo's quest for the right time signature is unrelated to the context of this discussion. Listen to a Strauss waltz and think twos: suddenly you're in Santiago and Moraíto is playing hot bulerías.
Then you say:
"Zata, if I read you correctly, is the two-count approach more a method of knowing where you are in a phrase in bulerias, i.e. in order to not to start dancing, playing or singing halfway into the next phrase? And that this is not a way of finding the bulerias rhythym specifically (since that is a pattern you have to internalize and superimpose on the two-count)?"
Let's call it binary or twos rather than a two-count...no one should actually be counting "one, two". But yes, that sounds very apt: "knowing where you are". I would add: "...in the context of the group". Anyone can keep their own compás, but bulerías only clicks when everyone is on the same wave-length, which is much more difficult that you might think. Saturday night I went to a Christmas "zambomba" at a large peña in Jerez where a circle of about 80-100 people sang charming folksongs in chorus (Simon, that was Cernícalos). Then a singer and guitarist arrived and sang Christmas songs por bulerías. Of the twenty or so people in the circle who did palmas (this is Jerez after all), I studied each one and not one was able to keep compás for more than two or three measures, having to stop and pick up the rhythm again and again.
The superimposition of twos over threes is what locks the compás in automatic pilot and frees guitarists, singers and dancers to create and relax. Threes alone, twos alone or twelves alone have too many opportunities to screw up and require constant intellectual monitoring...I compare it to spinning plates...it can only be kept up for a limited time, and always with great tension and concern about the plates falling.
Pay no attention to anyone who says this topic is meaningless: it'll keep you fascinated for years!
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 20 2004 8:31:48
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
The superimposition of twos over threes
So you thought the thread was finished eh? 
Seriously, though..
For folk who are not trained musicians such as Richard, or experienced Flamencos like Estela.....
Sometimes I find it easier to learn from someone who has "just" learned something.
That's why I listen a lot to the "minor" guitarists.
You can then hear the things that are difficult and the things which are straightforward.
Whereas, the "greats" just merge everything into one.
The straightforward and the mega-difficult just rolls out with the same fluidity.
Speaking for myself, as a learner, a lot of problems in understanding Flamenco compás comes from this 2 beat and 3 beat pulse overlapping.
It's a bit like things like, say, circular breathing in Jazz sax.
It's not an instinctive thing to do, but once you get it, it makes sense.
Back to Flamenco, and Bulerias, I've found one of the best ways of making sense of the compás is to tap 2 X 3 (=6) beats with your foot and 4 X 3 (=12) beats with your fingers, making it all fit into one compás cycle.
It's tricky to do, but gets easier as you go.
Remember, your foot is coming down on 2, so your fingers should be down on 1 and your foot should be up on 3.
Preferably do it to a Bulerias recording (cante) that you know well.
You should then hear the 2's and 3's emphasis shifting around as the singer, guitarist/palmeros etc interact, or when the guitarist takes a couple of falsetas.
ie...you will feel the dominant rhythm with either your foot or fingers depending on what's happening and will feel this shift throughout the piece.
Try it.
cheers
Ron
(PS Richard, I liked the description..."a full gringo compás" LOL!)
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Date Dec. 22 2004 20:36:04
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