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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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Yeah, but Andy...
We all know we have to take things with a grain of salt...just somebody's entrenched opinion, that they believe with their heart and soul.
There are hundreds, maybe thousands of Flamencos in Andalucia who would not see eye to eye on any particular issue.
It is particularly easy to become "charmed" by one's Spanish born and bred Flamenco friend or teacher into thinking that they are personally telling you the Gospel on a one to one basis.
But in reality, it's only one human being's personal opinion.
I'm sure if I had to spend one evening in the hospitality of George Bush or Tony Blair, I'd leave thinking that perhaps the war in Iraq was the best strategic decision that's been made in the last 100 years.
Then again, I go to Tommy Sherridan's house and have a meal and a drink and leave believing they both should be had up for war crimes!
They are all very charismatic people. You've got to watch!
I've heard some things during private conversations with very respected performers in the Flamenco circle that made me think I'd suddenly achieved an insight, a secret from someone who "knows", only later to find out that that's his or her's particular view on things and some other equally respected person say's the opposite.
Anyway, amigo I really think Zata deserves an apology for going over the line in what you said about her motives.
(You're a very bad boy and will be immediately sent into the "naughty corner" if you don't.  )
Seriously, Andy..you sound quite stressed out there, man, quite unlike yourself.
C'mon Man... let's try to be civil here and discuss ideas only.
cheers
Ron
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 10 2004 21:18:08
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Phil)
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quote:
When they say 'Bulerias al golpe' they don't mean BpS. I first heard the term a couple of years ago on one of the forums and finally figured out that that's what they call it when the guitarist taps out 1-2, 4-5, ...... on the golpeador, as a lot of older Bulerias were commonly played. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Phil, you are wrong, and I wouldn't say that so black-and-whitely if I weren't 200% sure.
The sentence above, "I first heard the term....on one of the forums" says it all. There is an entire body of misinformation which in particular American flamenco aficionados cling to as having come down from Mt. Sinai along with the ten commandments. For example, there is no such thing as fandango 'grande' and taranto is NOT a taranta with rhythm applied.
I've been living in Jerez for several months in an apartment that was lent to me for the purpose of carrying out this grant research, and taking full advantage of it, getting deeply into the Jerez ambiente, making friends and attending every possible flamenco happening. For six Mondays I was invited to participate in the Ondajerez flamenco radio tertulia (a sort of a round-table discussion), and by chance, the obligatory topic for all those programs was "bulería por soleá". We were four regular speakers and always one or more cantaor, either in person or via telephone. Among the guest singers asked to define bulería por soleá and the various labels it receives, were Joaquín el Zambo, Enrique Sordera and Antonio el Platero of the Agujetas family. Each one made it clear that bulerías por soleá, soleá por bulerías, bulerías al golpe and bulerías pa’ escuchar are one and the same thing , and that all those labels are all understood. That’s representatives of the Zambos, the Sorderas and the Agujetas, the three families credited with creating, developing and preserving this form, and the age range of the three men goes from 35-ish to 84. I personally interviewed Enrique Sordera in relation to the research and he confirmed the “bulerías al golpe” label, not by words, but inadvertently by saying at one point in his recorded interview: “conocí al Gloria cuando él ya era un hombre mayor…qué bien cantaba la bulería al golpe” (I met el Gloria [a legendary singer from Jerez] when he was an old man…he sang great bulerías al golpe). Enrique then goes on to sing in a low voice, a lengthy series of what most people here would call bulería por soleá, and explains he learned those cantes from El Gloria who apparently used the same label for them.
It’s extremely tempting to say “bulerías al golpe” are those “tac-tac (rest) tac-tac” bulerías, and “bulería pa’ escuchar” is bulerías cante sung at a slower speed and intended for listening, not dancing…but neither of those definitions bears any similarity to the term as used in Andalucía by flamenco singers and guitarists over the last hundred or so years.
It’s easier to assimilate the odd labeling if you hear what Joaquín Zambo had to say the night he joined the tertulia, as explained to him by elders who were eye-witness to the process. He said these cantes came into being around the turn of the century in the taverns of downtown Jerez. At that time the system of wealthy señoritos contracting artists for fiestas was just coming of age and was an important source of income for the gitano barrios of Jerez….sherry wealth finally was trickling down to the impoverished individuals who worked the vineyards. After a long night’s juerga when singers would gather for a “night-cap” in downtown Jerez, they liked to sing this rather subdued (in comparison to bulerías) and free-style form. Zambo in particular emphasized the freedom of the form which, like bulerías, absorbs other cantes, and has a do-it-yourself compás that highlights and relies on the importance of the 6-beat unit, as opposed to the neat format of soleá. It was a cante never accompanied by guitar or palmas, only knuckles on wooden tables…hence, the “golpe”. The label “bulería pa’ escuchar” harks back to the same scenario, since dance was not a part of those hung-over morning-after gatherings that helped the artists wind down.
Excuse the long message…the intent is to circumvent the lengthy process of “so-and-so told me…”, then the confusing replies and people getting hot under the collar. I know from experience that the labeling of these cantes is one of those powder kegs no one wants to ignite.
Estela ‘Zata’
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 11 2004 12:44:15
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
Phil (who has lived near Jeréz for years) also says....
"I had never heard the term before and only recently heard Pepe Marin on his Jerez Flamenco TV program refer to a Bulerias por Solea as a 'Bulerias al Golpe'. Apparently, it's another one of those ambiguous terms that means one thing in one area and something else in another area."
On the surface, Phil is right, but it's not that simple. In preparation for my (scary) experience of having to discuss bulería por soleá with the Jerez elite to be broadcast via Internet to the whole world, I took an informal survey of singers, guitarists and aficionados in Morón, Utrera and Lebrija about what these confusing terms meant to them. In Lebrija, which is just a few minutes north of Jerez, the labeling was the same as in Jerez. But further northward, Morón and Utrera, which is in a certain flamenco sense isolated from Lebrija in Jerez, everyone had to wing it...they were unfamiliar with the labels "bulerías al golpe" and "bulerías pa' escuchar", but that never stops a Spaniard, so they patiently explained the literal meanings (i.e.: "pa' escuchar" means for listening and "al golpe" means a clippy percussive compás).
My gist is, these are not terms in current use and which simply have another definition. In towns surrounding Sevilla (which is a huge chunk of cante territory) it's just bulería por soleá, or soleá por bulería, and the other two labels are not applied to anything.
Estela 'Zata'
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 11 2004 13:02:54
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Unfortunately nearly all of the Flamenco guitar students who post here and at Flamenco Teacher, refer to this toe-tapping as Al Golpe.
When people adopt a word (such as "palo"), you've just got to use it to make yourself understood. What else can you do?
Ron, it’s unfortunate only for those people who will eventually travel to Spain and have yet another obstacle to communication. If you know both the American definition and the Spanish one, you can play in both sandboxes.
“When people adopt a word (such as "palo"), you've
just got to use it to make yourself understood.”
If the people are Spanish flamenco artists, I go right along with it (which is the reason I now use "bulerías al golpe" in the Spanish sense) because the ultimate goal is communication. For the most part, people over 50 refuse to use the word ‘palo’, but since I’ve always been a follower, not a leader, you’ll see it in all my published reviews. 
Estela 'Zata'
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 11 2004 13:40:42
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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I don't know what's happening, but I'm privately receiving notification from the forum of some strange, even offensive messages of the type you see at flamencodisc, but when I click on the link, there's no message! If someone is posting gratuitous insults, I'd kind of like to know who it is, even though I wouldn't bother to answer.
I don't even know whether the following, not one of the offensive messages, and allegedly from "AndyB" was ever written because it's one of the broken links:
"In an interview on the Rito video series,
Melchor de Marchena refers to the style of
bulerias of his era as al golpe. So are you
adding him to the masses of uninformed?"
In a previous message I explained how the term "al golpe" came into being and how someone from northern Andalucía might conceivably use it in the literal sense, since as a "term" per se, it doesn't exist. Ask the man in street who has no computer what a "forum" is and he'll quickly explain about the Romans and the togas and Julius Caesar and Marlon Brando... 
Estela 'Zata'
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 11 2004 13:59:15
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ron.M)
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Well, as you can see, our server has been practically overwhelmed with resonses to the latest poll, with a staggering 12 voters to date!!!
If you are having difficulty, getting through, then we ask you to be patient and try again at another time, as your vote is most appreciated.
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(But those Plutonians are a strange lot anyway....so let's just ignore them.)
Ron
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Date Jul. 12 2004 20:23:44
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