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bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

they are fairly consistent. They have the right response, set up and sound for flamenco.

I disagree and must state just the opposite. By my eyperience and what I´ve heard from many guitarists, they are rather inconsistant. Some sound like an awsome shouting monster as most guitarists love it, others in the same model line sound very bravely. So I never would buy a Bernal (and many others) without having played it before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 15:15:39
 
slowhand9

 

Posts: 18
Joined: May 1 2014
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

but thats the case with all instruments of all makes, isn't is?

I really would like comments on the 'Maestro', 'Prodigio Special' and the 'Al Alba' models please, as they are in current production and sale. in fact, I would welcome all sensible comparison of the three.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 15:26:39
 
bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

quote:

ORIGINAL: slowhand9
but thats the case with all instruments of all makes, isn't is?

The question is how much difference in each model line can be found. If I want to buy a flamenca, then I´ll expect an aggressive biteful sound. But if I should get a cuddlecat, then it makes no sense. That´s the reason why I´m not going to buy a guitar because it has a big name. E. g. in november 2005 I visited the shop of Vicente Sanchís Badía in Valencia. He was still present but as a consultor. He sold his workshop to two job holders of his workshop. They told me they would build the Conde A26. I didn´t believe it. So they invited me to go upstairs in the production area. There were about 30 guitars ready to ship. They opened the boxes showed me some different A26 as blanca an negra. We took them downstairs were I could play them. They had some good and some very bad ones. At that time the A26 price was at 6.500 €. So that´s also a big name labeled with Conde! They made other Condes as well.

There are no 2 guitars sounding equal. But there are many guitars from renowned names providing a wider spreading in the sound quality. Another example is Hnos. Sanchís López. They offer very much guitar for the price, but it includes a lousy craftsmanship. My experience with them is quite the same what I´ve said before. For buying one of these guitars again without playing before I need a very confidential reference from a friend next on this individual guitar who can state for sure that this one has my disired aggressiveness. Especially their guitars really not seldom came with different sound characteristics like e. g. unbalanced tone, outstanding hard trebles etc. So I´ve become a pure opposer of buying guitars rather uncarefully. Last night I´ve been on the HSL website. Their dreamful description on the 1.F series and my experience confirm my opinion. By this view marketing is one thing that shouldn´t make blind. I ordered my guitar by visiting the shop in person. But what I´ve got was nothing I could get warm with. So I sold this guitar and was very happy to have space for something else.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
I really would like comments on the 'Maestro', 'Prodigio Special' and the 'Al Alba' models please, as they are in current production and sale. in fact, I would welcome all sensible comparison of the three.

You generally can trust on this: The better and more expensive the guitar, the better the woods. To give a more objective impression the reference provider must have played 4 or 5 guitars of the same model in minimum. Otherwise the impression only relates to just his individual guitar. It´s your decission if such a reference might really be helpful to you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 16:16:53
 
orsonw

Posts: 1391
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

quote:

in november 2005 I visited the shop of Vicente Sanchís Badía in Valencia. He was still present but as a consultor. He sold his workshop to two job holders of his workshop. They told me they would build the Conde A26. I didn´t believe it. So they invited me to go upstairs in the production area. There were about 30 guitars ready to ship. They opened the boxes showed me some different A26 as blanca an negra. We took them downstairs were I could play them. They had some good and some very bad ones. At that time the A26 price was at 6.500 €. So that´s also a big name labeled with Conde! They made other Condes as well.


Thank you for posting, maybe you could repost this in the epic 'Conde Questions' thread!? http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=100890&appid=&p=&mpage=9&key=conde%2Cquestions&tmode=&smode=&s=#252800
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 16:29:46
 
slowhand9

 

Posts: 18
Joined: May 1 2014
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

So let me re-phrase my original question (and maybe alter it a tad bit).
Which guitar models (of any luthier/brand) would one most recommend, at a sub 1000 pound price range?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 16:30:32
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3031
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

Some of the usual suspects below that price:

Hermanos Sanchis
Alhambra
Cordoba
Kremona
Yamaha (looks like you're in europe so don't waste your time with this)
Juan Montes


These are some of the brands that I remember from my research a while ago. Most of them offer all solid woods.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 16:51:23
 
bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to orsonw

@ orsonw
done ;-)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 17:07:22

Morante

 

Posts: 1409
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

quote:

well, I've noticed some folks say that the Bernal guitars are more suited as a 'student guitar'- more comparable to the Sanchis


Maybe the cheaper models, but the top class, hand made guitars of Valerio could be better compared to Reyes or Gerundino. Now that he is retired, his son Rafa makes great guitars. But they will not be cheap.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 18:19:00
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

I bought my Maestro model from OrsonW. It is a very good flamenco guitar.
I have played many Valeriano Bernal guitars, mostly Maestro models or above,
and they all were consistently good and well worth the asking price.
IMO, they are undervalued.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2014 18:59:24
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

I'm a fan of looking for a well-used guitar. The seller often knows that he'll be heavily discounting the guitar on account of it being a bit beat up from years of use. And if you don't mind that kind of thing, I think that's where the best value is if you're looking for a guitar that sounds and feels good. Plus, they're already "played-in/opened up", etc.

Or better yet.. if the guitar is older, obviously played *and has not opened up* - you can usually assume it won't and can avoid the whole "yes it sounds good now - but it'll sound even better in a few years!" game. Skip that guitar..

In the states we have Craigslist, which is nice for finding used guitar. And of course, many stores sell them too, though at a 30% markup in general
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 3:43:57
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to turnermoran

On the westcoast in the US, guitar from Paracho mexico often fit the 'good guitar/good value for $800 - 1500". And if you can find a used one, odds are you are getting a good guitar, provided you can check it out first hand and know what to look for. And how to avoid problems.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 3:47:38
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to turnermoran

case in point:
http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/msg/4390332699.html

Bernal guitar on craigslist for $800US
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 3:48:43
 
slowhand9

 

Posts: 18
Joined: May 1 2014
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

@Turnermoran: Hey thanks for the info.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 6:44:01
 
slowhand9

 

Posts: 18
Joined: May 1 2014
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

Gents,

It's true that no two guitars are alike. Agreed, it's best to first play an instrument before making an evaluated decision.
However, buying a good Flamenco guitar is not exactly like going to a few stores to choose an American standard Strat or a Les Paul, is it? I mean, there are hardly any stores in most countries which sell Spanish made Flamenco guitars. And even the ones that can import one, generally ask for a deposit, not to mention the model/make of choice. So one's options are seriously limited. Unless one travels to Spain.

what I specifically was looking for is a broad (and evaluated) generalisation of maybe 2-3 flamenco model/brand currently in production (I'm not fixated on a Bernal instrument- although, I must admit, I'm leaning towards one) which would help me make my choice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 6:52:53
 
orsonw

Posts: 1391
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

quote:

I specifically was looking for is a broad (and evaluated) generalisation of maybe 2-3 flamenco model/brand currently in production


Have you tried using the foro search? Your question has been asked many times (a small sample below). Of course it has never been conclusively answered because it's like asking people what's the best flavor icecream. But that's ok. It seems you are new to flamenco? If so enjoy the fact that it takes a lifetime to learn (or more likely ten lifetimes) and that even learning what is the best guitar for you (in any price range) is a lenghty but enjoyable learning experience.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=61613&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=best%2Cguitar&tmode=&smode=&s=#63392

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=14811&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=cheap%2Cguitar&tmode=&smode=&s=#27119

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=76252&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=beginners%2Cguitar&tmode=&smode=&s=#162226

PS I think the only generalisation would be check the action at 12th fret is 3mm or less, string height at bridge around 8mm.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 8:39:50
 
slowhand9

 

Posts: 18
Joined: May 1 2014
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

Hey Orsonw,

Yes, guilty as charged. I'm new to Flamenco. But have been playing guitar for over 25 years. And listening to Flamenco for longer. But you are absolutely right in stating that it takes a lifetime to learn about the idiom.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 9:39:44
 
Arash

Posts: 4361
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

quote:

ORIGINAL: bernd

If I want to buy a flamenca, then I´ll expect an aggressive biteful sound.

I need a very confidential reference from a friend next on this individual guitar who can state for sure that this one has my disired aggressiveness.

I ordered my guitar by visiting the shop in person. But what I´ve got was nothing I could get warm with. So I sold this guitar and was very happy to have space for something else.




Well, there you go, the reason why you didn't like these guitars (Conde, Sanchis), is because they are NOT "aggressive" raspy, growly or whatever you wanne call it guitars. It could well be the case that the guy who bought your Sanchis (which you didn't like) is now a very happy owner.
I have two 1F Extra and lovem.

In fact, I don't like aggressive guitars which growl like a chainsaw once you touch them. Others prefer these type of guitars and for them thats exactly the "flamenco" sound. Not for me. What I witnessed most of the time with several players is that most people when they start with flamenco and for a period of time (me included!), they all like very aggressive sounding guitars , but once you play more and more in different enviroments, the more you prefer less "aggressive" guitars.

I prefer "clean" seperated sounding dynamic guitars which start to bite a bit when you play harder, specially Rasgueos must be seperated and no sustain, etc. , though the lyrical voice of Vicente's Reyes for instance is extremely nice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 10:58:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

quote:

For the money, (under or around 1000 pounds) which model gives the best Flamenco tone/response?

I used to teach in the back of a Spanish Guitar shop. I used to spend a lot of time picking guitars off the racks and trying them out etc.
Pretty much all the flamenco guitars under £1000 were awful (they didn't stock Bernal or Sanchis though).
The only flamenco guitars I have ever played in that price that have been any good were Bernal or Sanchis.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 11:24:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to Morante

quote:

quote:

well, I've noticed some folks say that the Bernal guitars are more suited as a 'student guitar'- more comparable to the Sanchis

Maybe the cheaper models, but the top class, hand made guitars of Valerio could be better compared to Reyes or Gerundino. Now that he is retired, his son Rafa makes great guitars. But they will not be cheap.

I have played (only for a few minutes!) the top model from Bernal and I agree. I think it's called "Al-Andalus" - I checked online and found this vid (¡6 000,00 €!):


it's from Valeriano's blog btw http://www.guitarraflamenco.com/blog/?p=348

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 11:32:20
 
bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to Arash

Hi Arash,

no, I meant something else. The guitars I checked at the HSL workshop were more than acceptable to my taste. I liked them and esspecially the one I liked best was the reason to order. It would be no problem David told me, but I got something very different. Generally they have aggression and growl (my one in the basses). They provide a more modern sound. For instance Vicente Carrillo has changed the construction of his complete guitar line to modern demands.

On the other hand aggressive sounds e. g. like the Paco Peña sound of his Gerundino, the Santos Hernández, Carrillos PdL Line or Anders Eliasson and Andy Culpepper´s guitars provide the demands you´ve mentioned, but they are truly no Condes or Reyes. The reason why I´m carefully with HSL and Bernal is my experience in inconstance. That may has changed meanwhile but doesn´t doesn´t keep me laid back optimistically. I wouldn´t consider a HSL as lyrical or even comparable to Reyes.

I agree with you that taste in sound is individually different.
The buyer of my guitar (a forum member) liked the growling bases and but sold it after a short time. He now plays a Conde, a very good one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 12:16:12
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

quote:

in november 2005 I visited the shop of Vicente Sanchís Badía in Valencia. He was still present but as a consultor. He sold his workshop to two job holders of his workshop. They told me they would build the Conde A26. I didn´t believe it. So they invited me to go upstairs in the production area. There were about 30 guitars ready to ship. They opened the boxes showed me some different A26 as blanca an negra. We took them downstairs were I could play them. They had some good and some very bad ones. At that time the A26 price was at 6.500 €. So that´s also a big name labeled with Conde! They made other Condes as well.

I posted this in the other thread, but maybe you missed it. Do you know if the the guitars you saw were for the Felipe V shop? or media luna's for Atocha or Gravina?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 12:41:34
 
bernd

 

Posts: 678
Joined: Feb. 15 2004
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to mark indigo

You´re right, I didn´t notice.

Sorry, I can´t answer this question. I didn´t ask them because Conde (except the Faustino period) never caught my closer attention.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 12:55:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 10857
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to bernd

quote:

ORIGINAL: bernd

You´re right, I didn´t notice.

Sorry, I can´t answer this question. I didn´t ask them because Conde (except the Faustino period) never caught my closer attention.


So we are still in the dark with this tantalizing mystery.

Here is what has to happen...a conde lover and very knowledgeable of the different models and addresses, needs to go in to Valencia with video camera and figure it out. That simple.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 13:26:30
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Here is what has to happen...a conde lover and very knowledgeable of the different models and addresses, needs to go in to Valencia with video camera and figure it out. That simple.


when that mystery is solved maybe they can find out.... oh never mind (was gonna suggest something about birth certificate but thought better of it )

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 16:37:45
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to slowhand9

quote:

For the money, (under or around 1000 pounds) which model gives the best Flamenco tone/response?

by the way, I have a guitar still for sale if you're interested, luthier made in Granada and not reasonable condition apart from a small area of damage on the back professionally repaired to a high standard, AND it's going for HALF your budget. see this thread for pics, vids, details etc.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=249019&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=manuel%2Cfernandez%2Cfernandez&tmode=&smode=&s=#249019

EDIT: this guitar is sold

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2014 16:46:15
 
Ramon

 

Posts: 17
Joined: Apr. 4 2005
 

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to mark indigo

Well nothing better than to hear straight from the horse's mouth! I paid under £1000 for the Bernal Sueno model in 2001! Now it is probably worth double (Rafael doesn't make that model any more). I prefer my Sueño over the Conde ONLY when I use the guitar to accompany dance. The reason being that it has a very low action and a good string tension for rasgueos. The sound is full and has a nice woody timbre but not as well defined as the a Conde de Primera. On the other hand you are comparing a £4000 guitar to a £1500 In recent years Rafael has made quite a few improvements in the construction that is giving excellent results. My Conde is good for solo guitar recordings because it has a rich tone and the volume of each individual string is very balanced. I have plenty more information on my webpage:
http://www.fiestaflamenca.com/guitar-advice
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2017 15:06:56
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2589
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Bernal guitars? (in reply to Ramon

quote:

My Conde is good for solo guitar recordings because it has a rich tone and the volume of each individual string is very balanced.
is that the one that was damaged? did you get it repaired?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2017 19:31:49
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