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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes
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mrMagenta
Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden
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 RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to michel)
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About cultural lineage.. it sounds like some of you are speaking of these matters as if there were no overlap or common ground between different cultures.
In my opinion flamenco isn't all that difficult to grasp. It is an artform that's much about peeling off the layers and laying it bare. Cante has a lot of universality. If it speaks to you, then you have the most important key already.
There are certainly things that I won't 'get'.. references to geography, calo stuff, etc. But to me, these are details that I don't need to make my own music work. I want to learn about these details, but not so I can sing about Alosno or use obscure andalucian references etc.. I'll accumulate my own details, and make music that is relevant to me.
White people CAN play jazz. And if white blues sounds different to robert johnsson or skip james it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't heartfelt and deep music.
This talk about being at a disadvantage seems to miss the point.. there are so many ways to be disadvantaged even if you're andalucian and get music with your mothers milk. I think you need to lift your gaze and look for how to make the music relevant to you.. if flamenco doesn't have a vocabulary that serves this purpose, look for something else.
If what you're talking about is virtuosity then for sure, it's difficult to compete with andalucians that practice 12 hours a day, driven on by their family, playing frequent juergas etc. But not even that is impossible and there are ways to do it (though not without great effort and patience).
Imo, if foreign flamenco is built on a solid base (beyond mimicry), and holds its own depth of expression it will hold up and carry its own validity.
my two cents.
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Date Apr. 2 2009 2:02:09
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newstringjunkie
Posts: 21
Joined: Mar. 29 2009
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to michel)
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Wow what a great thread!
Of course if you want the real deal you learn Spanish, move to Spain and learn to play from the local pro's.
But to me the world is a village and although it is a "niche market" somewhere there is someone out there who is from Spain or has lived there who can teach you flamenco. My teacher graduated from music college studying with Paco Pena, so although he's a Dutchman he has plenty flamenco in him.
I think a large part of the flamenco guitar playing people discovered flamenco later in life and because of that and/or a dayjob they'll never have the time to really dive into flamenco to reach a high level of flamenco guitar playing, so the whole discussion on whether or not you miss the cultural heritage of a southern Spanish upbringing seems less meaningfull is you consider yourself a wannabe-pro (= moving to Spain or enter music college to study flamenco) or a hobbyist, playing for the love of the music, regardless of what part of the world he/she lives in and colour of skin.
I'm a little shocked by a line in a post about no white rock musician would accept a gitano into their group. People need to mix nd mingle and learn from eachother! People who practice apartheid by choice are very uncool in my eyes.
Also one tends to forget that positive discrimination is also discrimination, and not every little kid in southern Spain who picks up a guitar has it in him/her to be a top flamencoguitarist just because he/she's born in the region of origin.
(Cartman to Token: "you're black. you can play bass")
Skincolour discussions always hit a nerve with me because I know so many people who are mixed race, adopted, otherwise so not the stereotype black/white etc. I believe it gives people room and freedom to evolve into their own person if they're not primarily seen as part of an ethnical group, and isn't that what we all want, the freedom to grow as an individual?
About of being proud of where you come from, lots of bad things have come from this line of thinking so I try not to feel pride in anything that is not my personal accomplishment. I do however respect my closer ancestors, in the sense that I'm grateful for them, I exist because of them, but I also aknowledge that it's purely coincidence that my I was born in the country and family that I was born in.
Oh and how about classical musicians from China? They seem to do pretty well for themselves.
I'll be off now to see how good I am at dancing in wooden shoes. My left foot probably won't work with me because that one is from Indonesia!
;)
_____________________________
"Excuse me madam, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?"
"Practice, baby, practice!"
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Date Apr. 2 2009 7:15:18
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KenK
Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2005
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to gato)
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quote:
how many white people would accept a gitano in their local rock scene anyway? Nada.
Hi Gary-
Again I agree w/ most of what you're saying, but I wanted to touch on a couple of points.
I'm fortunate to live in the SF Bay Area. I think of it as a bubble of sanity in an insane world.
I know outside of the larger cities in California it gets pretty redneck.
But here it's pretty open. Not unusual at all to see people of various ethnicities playing rock, salsa, jazz, what ever there is really. And the audiences are just as diverse. There's been a few times when traveling that I realize there's only white people here and it seems weird to me. Honestly I think here people wouldn't even notice a Gitano in the rock seen.
quote:
People have to ask themselves, why am I so in to the flamenco? Am I Spanish, am I a Gitano, am I a Moore? And what makes me so special that I can just go and master it with the limited resources that I may or may not have?
I can only answer this for myself, but maybe a few others will agree.
I came up listening to jazz, fusion and of course rock music. I always liked new sounds played by people who really worked at their music (as opposed to "stars").
It a natural progression for me to be into flamenco guitar.
Like many, I think it's the ultimate level of playing the instrument.
In my case, I'm looking at learning the techniques and applying them to my own way of playing.
Although I love listening to the flamenco greats on cd and am extremely inspired by it, I don't think it's likely that I'd ever be able to do that. I'm not going to "master" it, not because of technique, but because it's deep and you need to be born into it. I'm personally satisfied at doing what I do, which has always been some kind of fusion. (I've been called a "fusion cook" too).
To me, there's a lot of creative work I can do by learning as much as I can, from wherever I find it.
I also play some Middle Eastern percussion and erhu.
I to cook Indian style, Thai and Chinese.
I've become good at it, but it's not the same as when I go to a restaurant.
Ken
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Date Apr. 2 2009 7:59:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to gato)
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quote:
And you ask yourself this: what are we doing here on this website? Is this our culture? Have we the right?
1. We are discussing, mainly, flamenco guitar playing techniques.
2. well....it is for me NOW! Now that I play for gitanos and payos from Spain and they don't give me any dirty looks or any bad words to my face or behind the back I know of. Now that I have shared meals and housing with these people, discussed deep secrets of the family, learned some words and deeper meanings in the music, exchanged jokes, and simply been accepted to share the stage or private party...sure. But flamenco is not only music for gitanos. Most gitanos and spaniards are NOT flamencos anyway....but flamenco becomes a way of life for sure. One is not "more flamenco" than another simply because of who his parents were.
3. Yes! But you must simply show respect for the art and the culture it comes from. If you simply do that, show true respect, no one will tell you that you CAN'T be involved with flamenco...unless of course they are jealous for some reason.
Just want to add, it is no excuse to write off one's lack of ability or lack of advancement in the art form, simply because of one's background being different...or the "wrong" background. That is a lame cop out IMO. "if only I had been born gypsy....if only I had started earlier....etc etc...". Lame. It just means, if you REALLY feel that way, that you need to work harder. Do the best you can and you will be satisfied. But if you sit there struggling and think "if only....", you will never achieve any ****.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 2 2009 11:17:06
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
"if only I had been born gypsy....if only I had started earlier....etc etc...". Lame.
That thinking kept me shy, insecure and out of the scene for years. Not that I'm "big in the scene" now, but at least people in the area know me at all now. I always thought I'm not good enough, not "real" enough, not a real flamenco guitarist. Just in the past couple of years, realizing nobody's gonna bite (most don't at least  ), I've been meeting more and more people and getting more comfortable.
It's good to push yourself, but at a certain point it can be counterproductive. I always remember the quote from Tomatito "You have to compete with yourself and you have to bring your fantasies, your dreams to life, everyone has something. That's why one guy's paranoid, another one's stuck at home... but look, we're all only human! You aren't Mozart, nor is anybody else..."
Most likely none of us will ever perform at the Bienal in Sevilla, but what does that mean??? It's not worth trying at all? Everyone who does their best and works hard should be good enough to make music they and others can enjoy. That's all you have to do really, it's that easy
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
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Date Apr. 3 2009 0:52:57
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to John O.)
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A dancer I know once told me that she, after many years of study, sometimes was bummed because she realized that she would never reach the top levels, never perform at the Bienal. But then she realized that there were hundreds of beautiful spanish female dancers, many much younger and stronger than her, who also would never dance there.
There are foreigners who have reached very high levels in flamenco, as well as those who have performed at the bienal, and there will be more in the future. It's a matter of determination, luck, and talent IMO.
quote:
ORIGINAL:
Most likely none of us will ever perform at the Bienal in Sevilla, but what does that mean???
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Date Apr. 3 2009 8:29:42
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (in reply to val)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: val
I'll play flamenco if I want to!
Ole!
I think those of us who are really passionate about Flamenco have no choice but to play Flamenco; personally I can't live without it. There are many people in Spain who did not grow up around Flamenco but who still want to learn it, and they have to start from the beginning like all the rest of us. It is not something that is in Spanish people's "blood". If you spend enough time listening to, practicing, and BEING Flamenco, you are learning it the same as they do. However, this does involve going to Andalucia, because the lifestyle is just not possible in the same way anywhere else.
Don't forget that the Gypsies are famous for being able to mimic and assimilate other cultures' music, while adding their own character to it, how do you think Flamenco got started? It didn't come straight from India 500 years ago. It came about in that great melting pot of different cultures and histories called Andalucia. And then after that white people stole it back from the Gypsies and added their own ideas!
I agree with Ricardo, it's just a cop-out to say you can't learn Flamenco because XYZ.
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Apr. 3 2009 10:42:07
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