Manuel Rodriguez C3F

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affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

Manuel Rodriguez C3F

Hello all!
I started playing flamenco 5 months ago, buying a yamaha CGX171SCF. The action was great though the neck was uncomfortably narrow and the rasgueos didn't sound authentic at all! This was more of a classical guitar though it did have flamenco dimensions and wood type.

So I sold the yamaha and bought a Manuel Rodriguez C3F which sounded authentic enough given the price ($585 CDN). The problem is that the action is (strangely) too high! I've seen classical guitars with lower action! I'm guessing that it is built this way to reduce buzzing which seems to be a problem with this guitar, but I'm not sure.

My question: can I reduce the action without running into problems, auditory or otherwise? Has anyone had experience with the c3f?

PS: I tried searching the forums for previous discussins of this guitar but didn't find anything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 5:32:17

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

I see no reason why the action can't be lowered, given that the guitar is in good shape structurally.

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Don't look at me in that tone of voice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 6:14:51

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

1. Buy a spare Tusq saddle to modify
2. Go to http://www.hillguitar.com/
3. Click on News > Classical Guitar Set-up (Under "Articles")
4. Read the set-up procedures. Kenny includes notes for flamenco guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 8:07:16

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to ChiyoDad)

My son's C3F was the same when we bought it.

All I can add to the excellent advice given is:

- be patient as you reduce the saddle height - its rather difficult to add material back!!
- of you're not confident, take it to an expert

I ended up reducing both the saddle and nut height to get the desired result - a little fret buzz.

The C3F is an excellent guitar for the money

Good luck

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 10:20:31

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to Graham_B)

Thank you all for your responses!

I will have the seller adjust the guitar for me since they have precision measurement devices and it is part of the price. I was afraid that I was duped into buying a lemon of sorts, but your comments have reassured me. I just don't understand why they set up this guitar with such high action. The guys at the seller's shop said that it is due to the variety of workers at the factory. "They are employees," they said. It would seem odd that they would not have a standard. Maybe the idea is to allow flexibility so that the instrument is appealing to more consumers, but all of this is pure conjecture.

I would really like to hear more from people who have owned the C3F (or for that matter, any flamenco guitar), especially for an extended period. I wonder how long does it take for a guitar on average to start sounding better?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 11:40:42

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

the c3f i tried had pretty low action. it had, in my opinion, just the right amount of buzz. the bridge was very short/small, typical flamenco bridge, compared to the yamaha. your saddle must be very tall then.

quote:

I would really like to hear more from people who have owned the C3F (or for that matter, any flamenco guitar), especially for an extended period. I wonder how long does it take for a guitar on average to start sounding better?

i've read that it changes in two hours, then two weeks, then two months, etc. but of course, that's obviously a generalization. some people say they notice a difference after 15 minutes. the c3f i tried sounded really good straight from the beginning.

out of curiosity, does your c3f have golpeadors?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 16:43:23

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

That's interesting because the last C3F that I came across had its action set too low.

Manuel Rodriguez guitars now use Tusq saddles so you should be able order the exact one from Graph Tech.

http://www.graphtech.com/products.html?SubCategoryID=55

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2009 19:44:48

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

the c3f i tried had pretty low action. it had, in my opinion, just the right amount of buzz. the bridge was very short/small, typical flamenco bridge, compared to the yamaha. your saddle must be very tall then.

quote:

I would really like to hear more from people who have owned the C3F (or for that matter, any flamenco guitar), especially for an extended period. I wonder how long does it take for a guitar on average to start sounding better?

i've read that it changes in two hours, then two weeks, then two months, etc. but of course, that's obviously a generalization. some people say they notice a difference after 15 minutes. the c3f i tried sounded really good straight from the beginning.

out of curiosity, does your c3f have golpeadors?

My son has had his C3F for a year or so and it does improve with age and daily playing - but so does my son's experience!!

It wasn't supplied with golpeadors - again another bit of very straightforward work to do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 2:42:34

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to Graham_B)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Graham_B
It wasn't supplied with golpeadors - again another bit of very straightforward work to do.

Wha-a-a-a-at??!!!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 5:08:46

Graham_B

Posts: 283
Joined: Jul. 10 2007
From: Leigh, Lancashire, UK

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Graham_B
It wasn't supplied with golpeadors - again another bit of very straightforward work to do.

Wha-a-a-a-at??!!!!!

True!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 5:25:54

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

I would find the absence of golpeadors to be ridiculous, even for a factory-made guitar.

While a competent individual can install golpeadors, it takes a bit of practice to use the water-method to apply the plates without having any air-bubbles. This is not something to try without previous experience or a craftsperson's touch. Shops charge $75 to $100 to install golpeadors.

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Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 6:03:45

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
out of curiosity, does your c3f have golpeadors?

No golpeador! It's only applied to the FF model ($1400 - $1700). The guitar shop didn't even offer to install the golpeadores that I bought, so I ended up with air bubbles all over, though they are small. Live and learn...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 6:33:10

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog

<snip>
... it takes a bit of practice to use the water-method to apply the plates without having any air-bubbles. This is not something to try without previous experience or a craftsperson's touch. Shops charge $75 to $100 to install golpeadors.

Any resources on the net on this method? Might become handy in the future...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 6:35:42

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

Here is the procedure shown with the installation of a clear pick-guard on a steel-string acoustic.

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Pickguards/ClearGuard/clearguard3.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 7:33:59

Michael1917

Posts: 146
Joined: Jan. 5 2007

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

Yes, and it is not difficult to do, at the saddle end and if any adjustment needed at the nut. A good explanation is to check out Ron Fernandez's guitar fret/saddle videos on YouTube. He also has written instructions on how to lower the action on his Web site----Google Ron Fernandez.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 8:43:27

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

I have owned a C3F Spruce/sycamore for over 6 years and it is a decent instrument for learning. The action was a bit high but some sandpaper on the saddle took care of that and I suppose replacing the saddle and nut with Tusq or Bone would help as well. Mine didn't have a Golpeador installed either which I found odd for a Flamenco, but I installed one with no problems. I cut it to rough size and then traced the sound hole and used french curve to get everything nice and smooth.

The reason I bought the Rodriguez was because I played a classical version and it sounded great however when I got my Flamenco it didn't really sound that good. A bit weak and nasally however within the first year it opened up nicely. It is a good starting instrument but since then, i've played several Yamaha's that to my ear, sounded better. The problem with low end instruments is that their inconsistent, you have to be able to try a few inorder to find a good one. When I bought my Rodriguez, Yamaha hadn't come out with there Flamenco line otherwise I would have tried one from both companies.

I now own a Amalio Burguet 1F and recently picked up a '70 Juan Orozco cedar/cypress flamenco. Both instruments sound very nice and I use the Orozco for dance accompanyment as it has a muy flamenco old school voice!

Good luck with your instrument...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 12:55:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuitarVlog

Here is the procedure shown with the installation of a clear pick-guard on a steel-string acoustic.

I've been doing it like that for years. It works well but not quite as easy as he shows since the tops on flamenco guitars are domed. What happens is you get areas that appear as though the golpeador did not adhere properly. These slightly opaque areas will disappear over the next few days as the moisture migrates out through the finish. It can cause some consternation if you aren't aware of the process.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 15:04:10

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

It works well but not quite as easy as he shows since the tops on flamenco guitars are domed

what does doming do for sound? and how does it compare to a flat top?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 16:03:42

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

what does doming do for sound? and how does it compare to a flat top?

I've built both ways and am convinced that doming the top improves the responsiveness of the strings. It's hard to describe but it has to do with the way the strings rebound when you pick them. Domed tops seem to make faster guitars that are more fun and easier to play; however by far the loudest guitars we've built had thick flat tops with lots of taper and very light braces.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 16:18:41

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

I've built both ways and am convinced that doming the top improves the responsiveness of the strings. It's hard to describe but it has to do with the way the strings rebound when you pick them. Domed tops seem to make faster guitars that are more fun and easier to play; however by far the loudest guitars we've built had thick flat tops with lots of taper and very light braces.

hmmm... that's very interesting. thank you for your explanation. i might build my own guitar this summer so im just trying to learn as much stuff ahead of time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 16:27:45

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

If the action is high, that should drive the top harder and possibly improve the tone. Maybe that's why they sell them with high action.

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Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2009 19:06:12

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

Just to close off this thread with an update...

I went to my C3F guitar seller and asked them to lower the action. They called me a couple of days later saying that the guitar is defective (neck is warped) and that I need to replace it! Of course, since this was the second C3F that I look and it is ALSO defective, I didn't bother and got my money back. I now recommend against getting a C3F (at least in Canada!)

Still looking to get a new instrument.. starting to break my nails playing rasgueos on the metro seats ;) I just read the thread about the M. Rodriguez FF and the Lucida picado was mentioned there. I will try to find one around.

Thanks for everyone who offered their advice!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 2 2009 19:25:59

Domingo

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: Austria

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

Hi!

sorry to bump this thread again, but I've read that the Yamaha CG171 SF is quite heavy, so I'm curious if the Rodriguez is lighter....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2009 9:35:53

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to Domingo)

Domingo,
My C3F is very heavy but mine is a 2002 with laminated Sycamore back and sides. The last Yamaha I played at Guitar Center felt lighter than the C3F they had in the store...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 27 2009 11:51:23

affect

Posts: 39
Joined: Mar. 17 2009

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to Domingo)

Domingo:

The 171SF and the C3F are similar in weight (I held both at the same time yesterday). I know you didn't ask for one, but I have a suggestion if you're looking for a student guitar. The 171SF is good as far as construction is concerned while I had problems with warped necks on the C3F. On the other hand, the C3F sounds better (IMO). The 171SF sells for CDN$500 while the C3F goes for CDN$700. If you are serious about Flamenco and you're a beginner, I recommend the Francisco Navarro Student from LaFalseta.com. The basic model sells for US$900, but it's worth it and it's still not a $2000+ guitar! You can read my review here: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=107974&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

There might be some other options with Antonio Aparicio guitars... etc., but I don't have experience with these. Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2009 8:37:00

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

This eBay auction of a used Francisco Navarro Student might go for under $400 USD. It would be a great deal for anyone interested.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Francisco-Navarro-Flamenco-265-2003-Guitar-Acoustic_W0QQitemZ250432450731QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item3a4eeff0ab&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2009 10:03:20

Domingo

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: Austria

RE: Manuel Rodriguez C3F (in reply to affect)

Hey guys,

many thanks for your replies! Well, I'm trying to play Flamenco guitar for only approx. a year now. I have a fine brazilian Di Giorgio at the moment, which is wonderful for playing Bossa, Samba, etc., but not so nice for Flamenco, hence, I'm looking for an alternative. The thing is, I'm really no good player, and therefore I think I don't need a really good guitar right now, and frankly, even if I were better, I wouldn't spend more than, let's say approx. €1000 for a guitar, because you know, I'm pretty sure if I had an more expensive instrument, I wouldn't play it very much out of fear of damaging it... Anyway, right now I'm just looking for a decent instrument with at least a little bit of Flamenco sound and feel. One problem is that in the area where I live there are no guitar shops that have Flamencos in stock, so I'll have to buy one from the internet, and you know, it's always a little problematic to buy an instrument "blind", without being able to play it first. So, I've decided not to pay more than approx. €500, and if it turns out that the guitar isn't that good, it's no big deal.

The Navarro would be nice, but as I'm living in Austria, I guess it's no real option since the shipping costs etc. from the US are quite high... Anyway, again many thanks for your replies!

regards,

Domingo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 28 2009 20:56:53