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Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 14:01:08

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 14:33:44

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

quote:

Yes, I just realized Florian is using a different definition of compas, basically, he's looking for everything to work out to units of

Yes that is true Estela i do count in 12s because is how every dancer here counts it is alot easyer to say "start the brake or displante" on 7 than it is to say" start the displante after the 3rd lots of 2s or whatever.

Everyone (dancer) that has ever held a workshop here has refered to the compas in buleria and other palos in 12s including Belen Fernandez, Elmestella etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 14:52:48

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I'm not very experienced in Bulerias, but this thinking in 3, 6, 8, 10, 12 etc somehow "seemed" wrong. I couldn't really believe that Spanish Flamencos were counting all this stuff out especially after a few tintos LOL!
People the world over like music they can simply tap their feet to, not have to remember complicated cycles, and 2's definitely is the main rhythm base that folk can relate to in Bulerias.

The only way I can possibly keep time/rhythm with a buleria is to tap my foot in twos, that is, tap foot on every second beat of the 12 beat 'clock'.
However, the only way I can keep to the overall compas is by listening for certain accents and mentally 'aiming' for them, if that makes sense. I think it would be impossible to try and 'count out' the 12 beat clock whilst you are playing, especially in a fast buleria.

As far as I'm concerned, the discussions about 3, 6, 8, 10 etc. is just a useful way of labelling things so we can communicate, but describing WHAT we are playing and what we think when we are playing are two differnt things, yes?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 14:58:11

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 14:01:30

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 15:02:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest)

Andy I welcome your opinion it holds just as much weight as anyone elses here.
I am just speaking my own, I am not out to piss off Estella i have alot of respect for his views and everyone elses.

I count buleria rythms in 12s because thats how most guitarists here and in Spain teach it or refer to it. Mibe i should have taken guitar lessons from a singer but i didnt i can only go by what i know (which is probably not that much

). I realise that is also counted in 2s my impression was that it was another way and not the only way. I have many guitar solo bulerias cds Tomatito, Vicente, Paco, Jeronimo, Nino Josele where the pulse runs in 12 cycles i mean if this guys are wrong id like to be wrong with them.

I am not always just looking for the compas to run in 12 cycles i am also looking for the other things that cant be put into words but are there, just because it starts on 12 and ends on 10 dosent make it buleria to me.

Is the same reason that i hate using metronomes to practice they are too perfect, I only use solo compas cds.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 15:36:11

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

Estela, when you say 'two's, do you mean like 2 4 6 8 10 12 (as we would define it), or that the 12-count compas is felt in two beats, that is 1 (23456) 2 (789101112).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:16:05

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

Look at Pdl´s feet during bulerias. he´s doing the "al-golpe" with his feet. ALWAYS.
But this is during 60-80´s now in the dvd he´s doing six beats every compas.
I try to keep the "al golpe" rythm in my feet and the 12 3 7 8 and 10 in my golpe on the guitar. Hope anyone understand what im saying

Henrik

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:24:03

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Estela just out of curiosity have you and Toddk ever had a argument in the past ?

I've never argued with anyone except my husband, and all I know about Todd
is that a lot of people don't like him and he doesn't play in compás. At the guitar-teacher forum there was one person who didn't like one thing I said about soleá (that the toque keeps neat twelves but the cante does not) and resorted to sophomoric locker room insults (always a sign they've run out of arguments), but I don't think his name was Todd, I'd have remembered because I have a nephew by that name.

Sometimes people don't like my observations, particularly about bulerías, but I haven't figured out how to alter the past (and have a hard time with the future as well) so the observations not only stand, but take on a life of their own when someone says "hey, I noticed that too".

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:25:48

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Guest)

quote:

On the other hand, I play one little Moraito rhythm fill that pulses like this
X - X - X - X - X - X -

All bulerías pulses like that if you let it happen.

The other rhythm, xx-xx-xx-xx, represents a cycle of six since the second and third (or sixth and seventh in the scheme shown) x's are stronger that the others. This combined with twos locks into a powerful automatic bulerías pilot.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:33:18

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 14:01:18

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:34:14

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Everyone (dancer) that has ever held a workshop here has refered to the compas in buleria and other palos in 12s including Belen Fernandez, Elmestella etc.

As I said, teachers use the 12-concept as a shortcut, but by no means is it a true representation of bulerías. It is at best an illusion, at worst, wrong.

In any case, I take your word that the notes sort themselves into modules of 12.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:37:34

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

I realise that is also counted in 2s my impression was that it was another way and not the only way.

No one counts twos...of anything. We humans are capable of feeling twos and threes without counting them...which is why music boils down to twosies or threesies.

The binary framework of bulerías is not "another way", but the internal structure without which other layers such as 3s, 6s or 12s cannot be maintained for more than a couple of compases...as demonstrated by the bulerías clip we are discussing.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:48:17

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:58:59

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:53:45

Guest

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:59:08

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 16:58:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

Ops i am sorry Estella we never spoke before so i had no idea that you where a lady i refered to you as a he. sorry

Andy

quote:

The guitarist Pedro Cortes Hijo said this to me "The further south in Spain you go the more bulerias becomes 6 and the less it is in 12."

Yes i have heard that too

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:04:06

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Buleria (in reply to Guest)

quote:

"The further south in Spain you go the more bulerias becomes 6 and the less it is in 12."

This is an unrelated issue and merely reflects the fact that bulerías is from the south, and is often taught in Madrid (and other non-Andaluz places). No flamenco singer, dancer or guitarist thinks of sixes in bulerías as exotica, and few would be likely to understand the issue if put to them.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:04:32

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:59:30

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:05:04

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Ops i am sorry Estella we never spoke before so i had no idea that you where a lady i refered to you as a he. sorry

I thought it was pretty funny actually

Anyhow, in Greece "Estela" is a man's name.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:11:01

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:59:41

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:12:24

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Buleria in 6 (in reply to Guest)

quote:

according to our mutual friend Mariquita Flores (now 86 years young and still dancing), the bulerias IS COMPLETELY AND ALWAYS in six.

There are many levels and facets to bulerías and twos are the only constant. Another minor fad these days is the compás some people in Jerez call "de Lebrija" which looks like this:

STRONG weak weak weak weak weak STRONG weak weak weak weak weak

A good example of this is the palo seco bulerías on Luis Zambo's "Gloria bendita" record.

For numberholics, think of the strong beats as 12 and 6.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:22:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

Ok so thats it than ? everybody else here agrees with Estella in saying that buleria is out compas ? and that we shouldnt be impressed by it ?

I am still 100% impressed by it, I think the compas or whatever you wish to call it is fine is about 98 % if it was %100 we'd be calling him Toddkamatito.

mibe i am just impressed with it because i am not Spanish

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:27:15

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

Estela is a fine woman and rather cuddly, at that

What she doesn't know about flamenco I could probably fit on a postage stamp.

I was shown by Emma (El Craic) to palmas the Bulerias De Jerez in twos (xx-xx-xx). Worked for me and Emma was complimented on her plamas by a pro singer in the pena gaurdia.

I am eschewing counting in favour of tapping my foot and using my foreign sensibilities to figure out the compas for each palo I try and learn.

I would rather play by feel than numbers, but that is just me and I will probably get it wrong anyway.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:29:25

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

I think the compas or whatever you wish to call it is fine is about 98 %

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link?

No...too stupid...

And yet...compás is either all or nothing. When the pulse is interrupted the edifice crumbles, the dancer stumbles, the singer's voice cracks, the guitarist's fingers get caught in the strings and everyone decides it's time to go home.

Or stated another way: How come dis guy gets ta play oudda compás and da resta us godda do dat compás stuff?

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:39:32

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to Escribano)

Simon our show was complimented by Belen Fernandez, the lady I play for has just come back from Spain where she did classes along Sara Baras it steel dosent always make us right.

I am not discrediting cuddly Estela I just happen to disagree with her.

quote:

I am eschewing counting in favour of tapping my foot and using my foreign sensibilities to figure out the compas for each palo I try and learn.

good for you keep that up

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:39:45

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

Estela,
so is Todd's "outofcompasness" the same as Gerardo's "nothavingcompasness"?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 17:56:23

Guest

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:59:56

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 18:01:07

Guest

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 14:00:12

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 18:03:43

Guest

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 13:59:19

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 18:05:40

Guest

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 9 2004 14:00:26

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 18:08:28

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Todd's latest Buleria (in reply to zata)

Yes she is, first time I saw her was about 8 years ago she came down with Paco Pena and the Losadas, she and the Losadas where the best thing about that show.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2004 18:08:35