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Conde Questions
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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 RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)
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quote:
The crisis is going to affect the entire guitar market. Its just that Conde were (IMO) overpriced to start with. The reason I'm even considering a Conde is that I've been offered one at an incredible price....regardless of the maker.
The Conde Hermanos Website spells out the price-class of each nomenclature:
http://www.condehermanos.com/index.htm
From most expensive
Felipe V (exceeding $18,000 in the US)
AF/25 and 25 R (up to $12,500)
AF/26 ($10,000)
Re-edition (start at $12,000)
This the Conde’s expensive and presumably in-house made collection.
Persuasive arguments that the two hermanos cannot possibly handcraft the production of all these models militate heavily to second the rumor that certain Valencia makers (including Sanchis) are supplying the guitars.
Recently a discussion arose concerning the word “Caviuna” handwritten on the Rosewood Conde label. The Conde site refers to it as Madagascar Rose, GSI as Brazilian, but the word per se describes neither specifically. A CITES restriction avoiding scheme, perhaps (?).
I have a Conde AF/25R and I love her dearly, although the same adverb inexorably sanctions how it is priced.
Do I have doubts it may have been made in Valencia, in a manufacturing chain rather than by the prestigious brotherly hands, or that it is not the Brazilian Rosewood I was told? No no no doubt in my mind… I am quite certain of it, no Brazilian no brotherly hands!!
But perception is reality, and as long as the finest players out there indulge in the Media-Luna trade dress, many –including this sucker- will feel rather privileged by holding one in their hands.
One last note. GSI (possibly Conde quasi-exclusive importer) is holding on to its highest mark-ups. A 1999 Conde AF/25 R (Brazilian) just went on their site at $10,000. Dan Zeff [but you never know from its site what is really available or sold and when] sells similar vintages at $7-8,000.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Feb. 7 2009 6:26:44
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Guest
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)
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Hola Pimientito
There are only 2 Conde brothers. At least one of them and at times both, are in the shop, selling guitars. ( the little workshop in Felipe V is for repairs only: last time I was there, there was only one worker, eating an apple).
Rhetorical question: how do they find time to make ANY guitars?
Atocha is mostly from Valencia. (Not to say that they have no good guitars). Gravina, according to la dueña ( la viuda de Faustina), gets its guitars from the former apprentices of Faustino, who worked in Pozuelo de Alarcón. (Not to say that they have no good guitars). (Nor to say that these stories are true!)
The top Felipe V guitars are made by very good guitarreros in Madrid, but I am not willing to be more specific.
It is undeniable that Conde is the choice of many top professionals, because the firm specifies the design and the guitars are properly made and correctly set up. These points weigh more heavily with professionals than the sound, since they are almost always played through a sound system.
So Conde is a good choice, but they are way overpriced.
Suerte
Sean
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Date Feb. 7 2009 8:36:58
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)
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The A26 thing is only used for the guitars from Felipe V. The other guitars that are equivalent in quality or whatever, media luna from gravina or atocha, I guess are just called 1a or concert model,, etc. THey price difference is almost double for the Condes from Felipe V, I assume because they "claim" to be builders, the widows contract out.
So you can call it "fraud' or a "scam" yet no one has tried to expose it or shut it down? And pro's use the guitars (myself included) because, frankly, whoever built knows how to make good guitars as sean said. Perhaps simply following the old esteso model, they get it right most of the time, yet their own guitars (whoever they are) are not as good? It is weird, but all I know is my hands don't lie to me, I can feel the comfy guitar vs one lacking...conde's usually good. Sanchis is good too, and many pros have used Sanchis even though some people want to put them down as "low quality"....
coming from a family that was into classical guitars, fine ones, I never thought of conde as over priced, relative to the classical guitars. In fact, when I played sanchis (ricardo or Hermanos lopez) I personally felt compared to the other makes in their price range, they are a HUGE undercut of the market....they should charge more for the ones that turn out fantasitic....it is actually not fair to the guys building just a few guitars a year by hand IMO.....
About buying used, just try the thing, don't worry about resale now. Everyone is so scared of "lemons". One guys lemon is an other guys gold honestly, I have seen it so many times. Just try the thing, and if you love it, buy it. I recommend used from usa, like Dan Zeff, because isn't euro still strong? Sorry haven't kept up on the exchange...
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Feb. 7 2009 9:13:48
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
One guys lemon is an other guys gold honestly, I have seen it so many times
Yeah, I can certainly believe that...so many variables..
Back in the 70's I visited Madrid with a friend to buy a "travel" guitar, although I had a few bucks in my pocket at the time and was prepared to pay "the price  ", if I came across anything really great.
I went to see Arcangel Fernandez, who seemed just to work on his own, but he raised his hands to the air and said that he couldn't even show me anything as his order book was full of customers from Japan etc for the next 5 years at least.
Very nice guy though.
The salesman in the Ramirez shop showed me a few guitars, but they were more or less the same as a Ramirez 1A I already had, although I quite liked a student model they had as a "travel" guitar.
I must admit, even when I stayed in Madrid earlier, I always felt this shop always had a kinda "commercial feel" about it, even though it was the old "Green" shop.
(When I returned a few years later, I saw that this old shop had been closed down and there was a big, shiny, modern glass-fronted Ramirez guitar emporium across the road! )
I went up to the Felipe Conde Hermanos shop, which looked more like an ice cream kiosk, it was so small.
A fat-faced guy in his mid 40's dressed in a brown overall came to the counter,
and said he could show me only one guitar.
It was a beautiful colour and played OK, but I was not impressed enough to pay the price he was asking. (A lot more than Ramirez 1A!)
I quite happily accept that maybe I was not experienced enough to appreciate the subtleties at that point...I dunno
Anyway, if that Conde Bro was about 45 in 1975, then that would make him 79 now!
How the heck have they the energy to go on making that many guitars since then? 
Especially since they must be very wealthy or at least well-off.
I mean it's a bit like expecting a version of Windows to be personally written by Bill Gates.
Also, it seems to me that more or less every other maker in the guitar business may as well go and retrain as a Webpage designer or something, for it seems these two guys have got the secret to build the very best guitars and everyone else is more or less just building student guitars.
AND they have 10 or 20 times the productivity of everybody else over the years!
(Except for Ramirez! )
Maybe next time you look at a Conde, it might be worth investigating if it's a REAL Sanchis, or just a Conde label on something Sanchis bought in from somebody else...
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 7 2009 12:20:19
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)
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Hi gj,
This might interest you, being interested in the fashion industry.
When I was about 17, there was this fancy shop which had just opened in Glasgow called Cecil Gee, selling very cool and quality menswear.
Everybody was talking about it, including all my young friends.
When I was in town, I used to stop by the window and gaze at all the cool Italian designs and hand stitching etc, but even a necktie would have cost me a week's wages as a 17 year-old in a junior job.
I really wanted one to wear at a big party I was going to, so one day I saw a really nice cut, plain dark-blue suit in a "bargain" shop window and bought it.
I then went into Cecil Gee's and bought the cheapest necktie they had.
When I went home, I carefully cut the Cecil Gee label from the tie and sewed it into the inside of the jacket.
A bit of very careful "hand-stitching" with dark blue thread around the lapels just made it all the more credible.
At the party, I took care to flash the distinctive label as I hung up the jacket and everybody was totally impressed!
Wow! man....where did you get the money to buy THAT!
So, does a label make a guitar sound better?
Yeah....
I think it does!
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 8 2009 12:01:54
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
When I went home, I carefully cut the Cecil Gee label from the tie and sewed it into the inside of the jacket.
A bit of very careful "hand-stitching" with dark blue thread around the lapels just made it all the more credible.
At the party, I took care to flash the distinctive label as I hung up the jacket and everybody was totally impressed!
Wow! man....where did you get the money to buy THAT!
So, does a label make a guitar sound better?
Yeah....
I think it does!
cheers,
Ron
I am sure the statute of limitations on this petty infringement has long lapsed, so it is safe for you Ron, little scoundrel, to tell the story 
It is a good metaphor, indeed, Ron, but it should draw the following conclusions (not that the label will make the dress or the guitar but that):
You could fool those who only know the “name” rather than the product that makes the name famous and worth that fame.
You could switch labels from an Armani or Brioni suit and transfer it on a polyester replica, but the result would be quite different: as we say in New York (about sticky people) “it will stick to your butt like a fifty dollar suit”.
You could apply the same rule to switching lables from a Conde to made in China, but I doubt many of the flamencos here would really be fooled. At best they would wonder if that label started producing in the Far East !!
But the moral of the story does not change: trust your instinct and the velvety texture of good flannel or the ringing trebles of a good blanca, regardless of who throws a name on it. Unless it is made in Italy… then go for it.
_____________________________
gj Michelob
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Date Feb. 8 2009 13:34:37
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)
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quote:
If I someone is prepared to spend 8000 euros on a guitar hand built by the Conde Hermonos and has a signed instrument that has not in fact been built by them then they have been decieved. Its the deception that is wrong....not the quality of the instrument, see what i mean?
I think you are right Pimiento, but I think that's the way things are done these days.
What you would have bought is a Conde "Design", which they outsourced to a quality builder and the quality control on the final product would still be Conde.
Electronic equipment manufacturers have been doing this for ages.
In fact, many widescreen TV sets came out with very well known and respected Manufacturer's names at a premium price over the budget end of the market, yet when you opened them up all the sets contained exactly the same chassis. (made by a Turkish OEM manufacturer.)
The variation in the retail price depended upon the cabinet styling and the all important badge.
I'm sure Conde labelled guitars are absolutely first class instruments made by experienced luthiers using first class materials, but my own view is that there has been a certain amount of "Condemania" around for years, which actually fed on itself, so as the guitars got more in demand, they became more expensive, which made them more desirable as every newcomer to Flamenco guitar wanted one day to aspire to owning a "legendary", expensive Conde.
Thus the Conde "bubble" (and prices) grew and grew.
So I don't think they have any fraud or deception charges to face, and just like the PdL "signed" guitar, people have the freedom to purchase what they desire and pay any premium costs on an instrument with a label which makes them happy.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 9 2009 4:45:00
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
You could fool those who only know the “name” rather than the product that makes the name famous and worth that fame.
You could switch labels from an Armani or Brioni suit and transfer it on a polyester replica, but the result would be quite different: as we say in New York (about sticky people) “it will stick to your butt like a fifty dollar suit”.
You could apply the same rule to switching lables from a Conde to made in China, but I doubt many of the flamencos here would really be fooled. At best they would wonder if that label started producing in the Far East !!
Well gJ,
I would say that would hold to a certain extent.
For example, I can tell the difference between a good guitar and a piece of junk.
However I find it much more difficult to choose between two good guitars.
In the end, it becomes subjective and I really have to trust my own judgement and preferences as to how they feel and sound.
And at the end of the day I could easily choose something which pleases me, but someone else thinks is a dog. ("bow wow" )
If you are buying a painting or an antique or a bar of gold, you would normally want an expert evaluation before parting with your dough, but most amateur guitarists just rely on their own judgement and the label.
When I was in Colombia, I was sitting at a bar table with some colleagues, when these two guys came up offering us uncut diamonds "very cheap, for cash".
To prove their authenticity he demonstrated this by scoring a line down a Coke bottle on the table. "See...pure diamond señores..."
I knew nothing about diamonds, but suspected that there are many materials which are harder than bottle glass and also had no idea what the true market value was, so I of course passed on the offer, although maybe what the guy was selling was kosher and I would indeed have made thousands of bucks on the deal!
Somehow I don't think so though! 
cheers,
Ron
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Date Feb. 9 2009 6:11:26
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