RE: Conde Questions

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RE: Conde Questions

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Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

When I was in Colombia, I was sitting at a bar table with some colleagues, when these two guys came up offering us uncut diamonds "very cheap, for cash".
To prove their authenticity he demonstrated this by scoring a line down a Coke bottle on the table. "See...pure diamond señores..."

I knew nothing about diamonds, but suspected that there are many materials which are harder than bottle glass and also had no idea what the true market value was, so I of course passed on the offer, although maybe what the guy was selling was kosher and I would indeed have made thousands of bucks on the deal!
Somehow I don't think so though!

cheers,

Ron

Well the Market Value is about 5 Dollars

Next time you are in Colombia, buy one of these diamond glass cutting tools with synthetic diamonds head and show them that you can cut coke bottles too!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_w_h_?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=diamond+glass+cutter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 6:35:23

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)

You've given me a great business idea Ron. Anyone want a guitar?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 6:37:58

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Arash)

Well, its abvious that your guitars are fake Pimientito.

Why not buy the original instead?

I am even cheaper than the fakes! (including shipment)

And you get a Cejilla and a set of La Bella strings for free too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 7:04:28

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Arash) 1 votes

This place is a Madhouse!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 8:33:43

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

quote:

It's shallower with tighter radius curves and almost flat lines before the two peaks of the medio luna.

This is 1997 A26 Felipe V headstock. Are you saying the Felipe V pro model is different?

hey thats my 97 Conde A26 headstock pic LOL. Rudy owned it.. then Eddie Lastra then me...I think Ricardos friend owns this now. Its a good guitar and I used it on my album. Honestly Pimientito..a good Conde is a good Conde wherever they were made or not made. I think its safe to say that with production numbers of Conde per year, there is no doubt its semi-factory but it is a good design and like I've said before a good Conde is hard to beat as it has all of the variables (great setup, nice neck, sound etc) needed for flamenco. Honestly, I've yet to find a Conde that I thought was "crappy", I guess its just my taste. If another luthier made a Conde style guitar, I'd probably buy it even minus the "media luna" headstock and label. A foro member/upcoming luthier is making one - ahem but I won't mention any names :)

Like many have said before, a Conde is like a Strat..and you just keep coming back to it after going around the block. Of course this is just my 2 cents. Again, like many folks here have said, play it first and if it sounds/feels good to you, buy it. Its a guitar buyers market out there right now and people need the cash.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 9:41:46

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

This is 1997 A26 Felipe V headstock. Are you saying the Felipe V pro model is different?

Yes. (Now this is just my observation).
There is a headstock like your photo but the shoulder line is close to being flat before the two peaks. The radius on the bull nose curve is also tighter.
I'll try and find a picture.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 10:44:04

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

I'll try and find a picture.

To my eye, this is a shallower head design. The peaks are less pointed and the proportions are different.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 11:25:40

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

I'll try and find a picture.

And this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 11:37:17

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 9 2009 11:45:23

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 11:41:55

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

http://www.hermanosconde.com/

Well it may be the "anti-christ", not Conde Hermanos but Hermanos Conde, a speculative and misleading shift of name over kinship: is this the reason perhpas? they too claim Paco De Lucia plays their Guitar (maybe they are correct). This is the Gravina store -not the Felipe V.

Curves are stiffer, and less pronounced than those distinguishig the Conde Hermanos in Don's picture. This image of an '06 Hermanos Conde is from Zavaleta's inventory.
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/n-06CondeFL.htm

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2009 12:03:51

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Well it may be the "anti-christ", not Conde Hermanos but Hermanos Conde

Hi jg,

That one's different again. The curve doesn't extend to the edge of the headstock

I had a Felipe V with Hermanos Conde label, not from GSI, but given their knowledge of Conde, I asked them about it and they said the labels are variable, sometimes Conde Hermanos and sometimes Hermanos Conde, all from Felipe V.

Strange world we live in.

Ciao!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 4:39:44

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

GSI (....) said the labels are variable, sometimes Conde Hermanos and sometimes Hermanos Conde, all from Felipe V.

Strange world we live in.
Ciao!

...and inhabited by even stranger creatures, performing the strangest deeds.
May be "hermanos" (spanish for brothers), does not refer to any legal kinship but to a spiritual fraternity or brotherhood, a cult perhpas...

Ciao Jim.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 6:00:48

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

a cult perhaps...

Are you suggesting that its not a half moon at all, bit in fact little pointy horns?

Jim, I not sure I know what you mean by a tighter radius curve. I'm assuming it means the rounded part is smaller and therefore the headstock is more "squat". If you can dig up a photo of what you mean that would help quite a lot. There seems to be quite a lot of headstock variation depending on the model and year. I had thought that the "media luna" shape was identical on all models but thats yet another thing to look out for.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 9:22:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Arash)

Jim is talking about old condes from gravina, sobrinos de esteso, the brother Faustino and Mariano.

The confusion I read was someone, mark?, was asking specifically about Felipe V condes...meaning modern guitars. yeah they are a bit different, but along the samelines of course...

About labels, I have seen old sobrinos de esteso that dont' even SAY conde hermanos, but only say Sobrinos de esteso, even from the same years that guitars had lebels saying "hermanos conde". Either way the good guitars have always been signed "conde hermanos"....

My personal feeling is that going all the way back to the start of Esteso's dynasty, they might have been contracting out to Valencia. Meaning yeah, even some of the famous Faustino guitars....i mean there was A LOT of those made too, like Ramirez, but at least Ramirez admits he had like a dozen guys building for him...

So that means the sons just carry on the way they were taught....but this is all conjecture on my part.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 10:03:48

Guest

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

Hola Ricardo

"My personal feeling is that going all the way back to the start of Esteso's dynasty, they might have been contracting out to Valencia. Meaning yeah, even some of the famous Faustino guitars...."

Ricardo Sanchis (padre) told he that he had been very friendly with Faustino and worked with him for some time. I suspect that your "conjecture" is close to the truth.

It is a pity that all this controversy and obfuscation tends to hide the fact that Conde guitars are usually very good, whoever is or has been making them.

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 10:29:20

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Jim is talking about old condes from gravina, sobrinos de esteso, the brother Faustino and Mariano.

Hi Ricardo,

Mmm..! I thinking Felipe V might still be making another guitar that's got the Sobrinos/Gravina headstock and this is their guitar for top pros.
The more rounded headstock is the top end guitar for the rest of the world and some are very good but basically they are made in other workshops to Conde design.

Nothing quite like a good conspiracy theory.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:17:22

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

I'm assuming it means the rounded part is smaller and therefore the headstock is more "squat".

That's it Pimientito.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:18:31

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

a cult perhpas...

Yip! The cult of the Media Luna. Camaron's tattoo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:22:24

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Arash)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:46:10

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

And also this one on video from the tremolo thread.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:49:07

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)

This was mine with big curves. Not so nice.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 11:57:09

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

My personal feeling is that going all the way back to the start of Esteso's dynasty

I suppose if you go back even earlier to European violin and cello makers in the 17th century, they had workshops with apprentices making the instruments and the master finishing them and putting in the label. In this sense the instrument comes from a workshop and not from a person.

Anyway I wont keep harping on this point of labelling. I actually saw the guitar today. It's an cyprus A26 in orange glaze. Here is the headstock

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 12:11:16

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

Its a Sanchiz of course. I compared to my A28. Clearly the same maker. Labelled 2004 Atocha (which tends to confirm Sanchiz as well) first owned by "El Viejin" which he sold to one of his students (who is actually professional)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 12:14:48

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

Oh, and the guitar itself. It sounds great i have to admit. I didnt realise there was so much sound difference between the media lunas and the A27/A28. Its not just louder, its clearer somehow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 12:24:28

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

I didnt realise there was so much sound difference between the media lunas and the A27/A28. Its not just louder, its clearer somehow

I kinda get the feeling you bought the guitar Pimientito...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 12:30:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Its a Sanchiz of course. I compared to my A28. Clearly the same maker. Labelled 2004 Atocha (which tends to confirm Sanchiz as well) first owned by "El Viejin" which he sold to one of his students (who is actually professional)

and even back then, a normal customer could try and buy this guitar (in 2004) labled and signed as such here, for about 2,500-3500 E. Is that about what it isgoing for?

Vs the same looking guitar (they dont really look the same, look at that bridge tie block, total hermanos Sanchis Lopez) from Felipe V back then, was 6000E from the shop....

The simple fact that Viejin picked, used, and probably recorded with this instrument increases its value IMO.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 13:53:35

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

2,500-3500 E. Is that about what it is going for?

Yes it is! No fooling you Ricardo. I think its a good deal considering that model is 8400 now (which means you can get it for 7000 cash). I know for a fact Viejin didnt record with this guitar but I can see why he picked it out.

I haven't decided yet Ron...I mean of course I want it but I'm asking myself if I really need another concert guitar right now. I've regretted not buying instruments before when they have come along but im going to sleep on it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 15:07:34

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim, you mean this type of headstock right?

Its a early 70's Sobrinos and probably the best Conde I've ever played. I played this guitar at Juan's house in Jerez and its incredible..so lightweight and super easy to play. Different sound from the Felipe quinto or modern Condes I think. I noticed the neck felt narrower than the newer Condes. Apparently a japanese guitar student of his gave him this guitar as a gift..lucky ba$tard.

He also had an 80s Atocha blanca that sounded nice but was harder to play.
I think Rudy's eBay 73 Sobrinos is similar to this guitar but peghead.

Below is my 2000 Atocha. Interesting what Ricardo thinks about Sanchis making this guitar cause I just received from a friend, an Hnos Sanchis 1a blanca maple b/s and the dimensions are exact compared to the Atocha. I notice the headstock of Atocha guitars are same as the Felipe (wider horns) even the bracing with 2 parallel bars between the roseta are existent...interesting. I wonder if some Felipe V's are also made by Sanchis. I have a feeling the same workers are contracted by these two shops but I could be wrong shouldn't matter much to anyone anyway. Many pros in Spain play Conde from all the different shops. A friend of mine in Madrid (Pepe Haro) told me that Jose Manuel Leon plays a red Conde Atocha that he used on his album.

Don

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2009 15:51:41

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

There has been a lot of interesting information in this thread – quite a lot of it possibly true! It would be easy to assume that there is some connection between the three businesses to emerge after the deaths of Faustino, Mariano and Julio Conde. All three try understandably to stress their links with the glorious past when all the great players coming to Madrid to seek their fortunes hung around in the original Gravina shop. To help reinforce the connection they keep some of the more obvious cosmetic details (eg versions of the media luna head and the basic features of the old brown labels for the best guitars). As I understand it there are no connections (or much love?) between them now.

The most commercial enterprise at Felipe V registered new titles for their guitars and started using them sometime in 2002.
The old labels read
HERMANOS CONDE
SOBRINOS DE ESTESO
CONSTRUCCION DE GUITARRAS
and the new ones
Conde Hermanos
SUCESORES SOBRINOS DE ESTESO ®
CONSTRUCCION DE GUITARRAS ®
Labels for the tasteless collectors’ FELIPE V models have an abbreviated version with the addition of ‘3a Epoca’. The old green labels for cheaper guitars also had the new title, although there is a completely new design for some of these now.

The period just before the old boys died to just after (say 1984 – 1995) was the most confusing. I have seen a lot of guitars made in this period and it would be easy to believe that each one was made by a different person. Lurking around in all the current chaos there are some fantastic guitars - but let the buyer beware!
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 5:29:03

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DonS)

quote:

Jim, you mean this type of headstock right?

Don,

Interesting. I see it better on this video at 2.20 (Rear view)

I know the older Sobrinos have this style (which I think looks fantastic) but my thought is that they are still being made at Felipe V, but only for the big gun players. Might be the duo at Felipe V make them personally whilst the other head design is their commercial version sold to the wider market and probably out-sourced to other makers.

I have an article on Faustino Conde from 1985 which I'll try to upload on a new thread. The guys might find it interesting background.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2009 11:10:46