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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

Conde Questions 

The economic crisis isnt just affecting property and investments. It seems even expensive guitars are losing value as people try to sell them to free up some cash. Conde Hermanos have up until now held their prices well but I looked on line and there are many for sale. Consequently the prices are dropping. Recently I have been offered a couple of Concert Condes by some local players at bargain prices.

I am very tempted and decided to check out the different Conde models which has left me really confused. I have a few questions with regard to what am I actually buying so I hope you guys can help me out.

I am working on the following assumptions. Can anyone correct me.

The half moon models are I believe A24, A25 and A26 and these are actually made by Felipe brothers. I already have a B Model that is a Sanchis. I know this because a friend of mine has the same model Sanchis and the 2 guitars are identical. However the label in my (conde) is Felipe V. Clearly Sanchis make guitars for Felipe V (although presumably not the A series).

Ricardo posted (in another forum) that he was told his A26 was a Sanchis but later found that it was in fact built by Felipe bros. However another guy bought a cheaper Conde from Atoche that had a Sanchis stamp in it. So the Atoche condes are essentallly Sanchis?

...and some of the felipe V models are Sanchis too.

....so how do you know what you are buying? This is something that has always annoyed me about Condes Trading. If you buy a car from a showroom with a mercedes badge on it, you think you are buying a mercedes. Later when you take the car for servicing the mechanic tells you that you actually have a volkswagan with a mercedes badge on the front of it. The dealer later admits that it is true but not to worry...the vehicle will still hold its value like a mercedes. This seems wrong to me. You think you are buying a product to find out you are buying another of lesser quality with the same label on it. In any other business this would be fraud.

Here is a picture of an A26 label. Do the "A" series all come from Gravina or do some come from Felipe V? The A26 is the most expensive model right ? What are the differences between the A 24 , A 25 and A 26?
I am hoping to obtain a felipe bros A26 that was ACTUALLY BUILT by conde hermanos. How can i tell that is what Im doing?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 2:48:59
 
Arash

Posts: 4409
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

This might be also a littlebit helpful:

http://www.condehermanos.com/catalogo.pdf


btw, the most expensive models are these "Reedition" models now i think. they cost over 12000 $

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 4:12:07
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)1 votes

quote:

....so how do you know what you are buying? This is something that has always annoyed me about Condes Trading. If you buy a car from a showroom with a mercedes badge on it, you think you are buying a mercedes. Later when you take the car for servicing the mechanic tells you that you actually have a volkswagan with a mercedes badge on the front of it. The dealer later admits that it is true but not to worry...the vehicle will still hold its value like a mercedes. This seems wrong to me. You think you are buying a product to find out you are buying another of lesser quality with the same label on it. In any other business this would be fraud.


So why buying a Conde? Lots of other guitars made by "real" makers are getting cheaper as well.

Good luck with your Volkswagen. Nice car

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 5:30:53
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Arash

Thanks a lot Arash. Thats really helpful. I've seen all the models but I didnt know which was which. So that explains my Sanchis is the A28.
The A26 is the one most pros have but the A25 Rosewood is the really expensive one. So I've sorted out the models in my head. What i dont understand is the labelling.

There are 3 points of sales, Atocha, Felipe V and Gravina 7. I'm already wary of the Atocha label so can the A26 come from either of the others? I'm sure lots of members here have Condes. Would some of you mind uploading photos of the labels from the different models. Thanks. Pimientito

Here is my 1990 A28 label



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 5:32:20
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Lots of other guitars made by "real" makers are getting cheaper as well.


Thats true! Are you having a winter sale yet?
The crisis is going to affect the entire guitar market. Its just that Conde were (IMO) overpriced to start with. The reason I'm even considering a Conde is that I've been offered one at an incredible price....regardless of the maker.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 5:35:58
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

The crisis is going to affect the entire guitar market. Its just that Conde were (IMO) overpriced to start with. The reason I'm even considering a Conde is that I've been offered one at an incredible price....regardless of the maker.


The Conde Hermanos Website spells out the price-class of each nomenclature:
http://www.condehermanos.com/index.htm

From most expensive
Felipe V (exceeding $18,000 in the US)
AF/25 and 25 R (up to $12,500)
AF/26 ($10,000)
Re-edition (start at $12,000)

This the Conde’s expensive and presumably in-house made collection.
Persuasive arguments that the two hermanos cannot possibly handcraft the production of all these models militate heavily to second the rumor that certain Valencia makers (including Sanchis) are supplying the guitars.
Recently a discussion arose concerning the word “Caviuna” handwritten on the Rosewood Conde label. The Conde site refers to it as Madagascar Rose, GSI as Brazilian, but the word per se describes neither specifically. A CITES restriction avoiding scheme, perhaps (?).

I have a Conde AF/25R and I love her dearly, although the same adverb inexorably sanctions how it is priced.
Do I have doubts it may have been made in Valencia, in a manufacturing chain rather than by the prestigious brotherly hands, or that it is not the Brazilian Rosewood I was told? No no no doubt in my mind… I am quite certain of it, no Brazilian no brotherly hands!!

But perception is reality, and as long as the finest players out there indulge in the Media-Luna trade dress, many –including this sucker- will feel rather privileged by holding one in their hands.

One last note. GSI (possibly Conde quasi-exclusive importer) is holding on to its highest mark-ups. A 1999 Conde AF/25 R (Brazilian) just went on their site at $10,000. Dan Zeff [but you never know from its site what is really available or sold and when] sells similar vintages at $7-8,000.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 6:26:44
 
itoprover

Posts: 339
Joined: Jan. 3 2006
From: Ottawa, ON

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

Why are you so worried about who is the actual maker of guitar? If it sounds like conde (usually loud, bright and hollow), has media luna headstock and fine grain spruce top and the price is right - then perhaps this is what you are looking for, no?
Anyways here is my A26 label



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Ilia
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 7:39:20
 
Taranto

 

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

You should check the particular guitar and decide if it's worth the money, unless you are buying the label or you are a collector.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 8:22:44
Guest

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

Hola Pimientito

There are only 2 Conde brothers. At least one of them and at times both, are in the shop, selling guitars. ( the little workshop in Felipe V is for repairs only: last time I was there, there was only one worker, eating an apple).

Rhetorical question: how do they find time to make ANY guitars?

Atocha is mostly from Valencia. (Not to say that they have no good guitars). Gravina, according to la dueña ( la viuda de Faustina), gets its guitars from the former apprentices of Faustino, who worked in Pozuelo de Alarcón. (Not to say that they have no good guitars). (Nor to say that these stories are true!)

The top Felipe V guitars are made by very good guitarreros in Madrid, but I am not willing to be more specific.

It is undeniable that Conde is the choice of many top professionals, because the firm specifies the design and the guitars are properly made and correctly set up. These points weigh more heavily with professionals than the sound, since they are almost always played through a sound system.

So Conde is a good choice, but they are way overpriced.

Suerte

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 8:36:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

The A26 thing is only used for the guitars from Felipe V. The other guitars that are equivalent in quality or whatever, media luna from gravina or atocha, I guess are just called 1a or concert model,, etc. THey price difference is almost double for the Condes from Felipe V, I assume because they "claim" to be builders, the widows contract out.

So you can call it "fraud' or a "scam" yet no one has tried to expose it or shut it down? And pro's use the guitars (myself included) because, frankly, whoever built knows how to make good guitars as sean said. Perhaps simply following the old esteso model, they get it right most of the time, yet their own guitars (whoever they are) are not as good? It is weird, but all I know is my hands don't lie to me, I can feel the comfy guitar vs one lacking...conde's usually good. Sanchis is good too, and many pros have used Sanchis even though some people want to put them down as "low quality"....

coming from a family that was into classical guitars, fine ones, I never thought of conde as over priced, relative to the classical guitars. In fact, when I played sanchis (ricardo or Hermanos lopez) I personally felt compared to the other makes in their price range, they are a HUGE undercut of the market....they should charge more for the ones that turn out fantasitic....it is actually not fair to the guys building just a few guitars a year by hand IMO.....

About buying used, just try the thing, don't worry about resale now. Everyone is so scared of "lemons". One guys lemon is an other guys gold honestly, I have seen it so many times. Just try the thing, and if you love it, buy it. I recommend used from usa, like Dan Zeff, because isn't euro still strong? Sorry haven't kept up on the exchange...
Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 9:13:48
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest

Thanks for the input guys. Michelob - Conde seems to be more expensive in the U.S. Those GSI prices you quoted were unbelievable.

The current rate of unemployment in Spain now means people are selling cars, guitars and everything cheap. I dont want to go into the specifics of the deal I'm in right now but just to say that this year it will be possible to buy second hand half moon A model Condes in Spain for UNDER 3000 Euros. Thats why I'm asking all these questions

Ricardo. So your A26 is from Felipe V right? The euro is really strong now. I changed 50 pounds sterling the other day and got only 51 euros back.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 9:21:19
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)1 votes

quote:

quote:

Lots of other guitars made by "real" makers are getting cheaper as well.



Thats true! Are you having a winter sale yet?


With my prices, you could say that I have a sale all year round.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 10:37:55
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest

quote:

The top Felipe V guitars are made by very good guitarreros in Madrid, but I am not willing to be more specific.


Sean, i am exceedingly pleased with my Conde, but boy did you get me eagerly curious with that statement.... please.... please... can you spill the beans?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 11:34:38
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

One guys lemon is an other guys gold honestly, I have seen it so many times


Yeah, I can certainly believe that...so many variables..

Back in the 70's I visited Madrid with a friend to buy a "travel" guitar, although I had a few bucks in my pocket at the time and was prepared to pay "the price ", if I came across anything really great.

I went to see Arcangel Fernandez, who seemed just to work on his own, but he raised his hands to the air and said that he couldn't even show me anything as his order book was full of customers from Japan etc for the next 5 years at least.
Very nice guy though.

The salesman in the Ramirez shop showed me a few guitars, but they were more or less the same as a Ramirez 1A I already had, although I quite liked a student model they had as a "travel" guitar.
I must admit, even when I stayed in Madrid earlier, I always felt this shop always had a kinda "commercial feel" about it, even though it was the old "Green" shop.

(When I returned a few years later, I saw that this old shop had been closed down and there was a big, shiny, modern glass-fronted Ramirez guitar emporium across the road! )

I went up to the Felipe Conde Hermanos shop, which looked more like an ice cream kiosk, it was so small.

A fat-faced guy in his mid 40's dressed in a brown overall came to the counter,
and said he could show me only one guitar.

It was a beautiful colour and played OK, but I was not impressed enough to pay the price he was asking. (A lot more than Ramirez 1A!)

I quite happily accept that maybe I was not experienced enough to appreciate the subtleties at that point...I dunno

Anyway, if that Conde Bro was about 45 in 1975, then that would make him 79 now!

How the heck have they the energy to go on making that many guitars since then?

Especially since they must be very wealthy or at least well-off.

I mean it's a bit like expecting a version of Windows to be personally written by Bill Gates.

Also, it seems to me that more or less every other maker in the guitar business may as well go and retrain as a Webpage designer or something, for it seems these two guys have got the secret to build the very best guitars and everyone else is more or less just building student guitars.

AND they have 10 or 20 times the productivity of everybody else over the years!

(Except for Ramirez! )

Maybe next time you look at a Conde, it might be worth investigating if it's a REAL Sanchis, or just a Conde label on something Sanchis bought in from somebody else...

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 12:20:19
 
DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to itoprover

quote:

ORIGINAL: itoprover

Why are you so worried about who is the actual maker of guitar? If it sounds like conde (usually loud, bright and hollow), has media luna headstock and fine grain spruce top and the price is right - then perhaps this is what you are looking for, no?
Anyways here is my A26 label




I agree... I've played many many Condes and owned a few that were good to great from every shop (Felipe,Gravina and Atocha) I currently have an Atocha 1a that is just amazing and I favor over my most $$ guitars Barba 02 and 03. I say forget the label and buy what sounds good to you. At the top range of guitars the differences are minute so price does not always justify quality and sound....its all subjective. What I like might not be what you are looking for or fits your sound/style of playing. Also lots of luthiers making great guitars right now so keep an open mind.

suerte - Don

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 12:39:43
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest

quote:


The top Felipe V guitars are made by very good guitarreros in Madrid, but I am not willing to be more specific.


Its Ok. I know what you are saying

Your collective input has been very helpful guys. I know a lot more about Conde than 24 hours ago. I'll let you know what happens.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 17:25:23
 
edguerin

Posts: 1545
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

Interestingly enough, the Felipe V is signed "Conde Hermanos", the Gravina is signed with a flashy indecipherable signature and the 1990 model has none at all

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El aficionado solitario
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2009 21:46:25
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob

Hi gj,

This might interest you, being interested in the fashion industry.

When I was about 17, there was this fancy shop which had just opened in Glasgow called Cecil Gee, selling very cool and quality menswear.

Everybody was talking about it, including all my young friends.

When I was in town, I used to stop by the window and gaze at all the cool Italian designs and hand stitching etc, but even a necktie would have cost me a week's wages as a 17 year-old in a junior job.

I really wanted one to wear at a big party I was going to, so one day I saw a really nice cut, plain dark-blue suit in a "bargain" shop window and bought it.

I then went into Cecil Gee's and bought the cheapest necktie they had.

When I went home, I carefully cut the Cecil Gee label from the tie and sewed it into the inside of the jacket.

A bit of very careful "hand-stitching" with dark blue thread around the lapels just made it all the more credible.

At the party, I took care to flash the distinctive label as I hung up the jacket and everybody was totally impressed!

Wow! man....where did you get the money to buy THAT!

So, does a label make a guitar sound better?

Yeah....

I think it does!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 12:01:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Anyway, if that Conde Bro was about 45 in 1975, then that would make him 79 now!

How the heck have they the energy to go on making that many guitars since then?


That would have either been at Atocha or Gravina. (I have played a sobrinos de esteso from late 60's with BOTH addresses on the label....AND SIGNED!) Both brothers died in the late 80's, a year apart I believe. The "Conde brothers" that we have referred to in this thread are the sons of one of the brothers (mariano), and are set up at a new address, Felipe V....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 12:07:54
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The "Conde brothers" that we have referred to in this thread are the sons of one of the brothers (mariano), and are set up at a new address, Felipe


Thanks Ricardo, I didn't know that!
It must have been the Gravina shop I went to, as it was in the "north-central" part up at Jose Antonio.

Obviously the "sons of the nephews of Esteso" have a better business sense and we can only think that their sons will do even better!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 12:19:33
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

When I went home, I carefully cut the Cecil Gee label from the tie and sewed it into the inside of the jacket.
A bit of very careful "hand-stitching" with dark blue thread around the lapels just made it all the more credible.
At the party, I took care to flash the distinctive label as I hung up the jacket and everybody was totally impressed!
Wow! man....where did you get the money to buy THAT!
So, does a label make a guitar sound better?
Yeah....
I think it does!
cheers,
Ron


I am sure the statute of limitations on this petty infringement has long lapsed, so it is safe for you Ron, little scoundrel, to tell the story

It is a good metaphor, indeed, Ron, but it should draw the following conclusions (not that the label will make the dress or the guitar but that):

You could fool those who only know the “name” rather than the product that makes the name famous and worth that fame.
You could switch labels from an Armani or Brioni suit and transfer it on a polyester replica, but the result would be quite different: as we say in New York (about sticky people) “it will stick to your butt like a fifty dollar suit”.
You could apply the same rule to switching lables from a Conde to made in China, but I doubt many of the flamencos here would really be fooled. At best they would wonder if that label started producing in the Far East !!

But the moral of the story does not change: trust your instinct and the velvety texture of good flannel or the ringing trebles of a good blanca, regardless of who throws a name on it. Unless it is made in Italy… then go for it.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 13:34:37
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M

This is going a bit off the thread topic but this is my feeling about labels. Labels can or do give you a preconception of a product or item of clothing, but thats only because original brands usually have worked hard to gain a reputation. Even though the quality of (any) product should be judged on its own merit, a reputable label gives a client some assurance of quality control.
If a famous artist signs a painting done by someone else, then that is a fraud (regardless of how good the painting is)
If you buy a bag or belt with a false label in the street then you are buying a forgery (even if they look the same)
If I print a bank note and pass it on as issued by the bank, then I would go to prison.Yet it seems only in the world of concert guitars where this business protocol is considered normal practice.

I had some years ago a Ramirez (that was actually owned by Carmen Amayas brother) The point is that the label had a little stamp in the corner depicting SH which meant Santos Hernandez actually made the guitar. If the Ramirez label had DE on it then it would have been made by Domingo Esteso. In those days it was normal for the maker of the guitar to put a stamp on the label so that anyone would know who built it. I'm not saying Conde don't build great guitars...but surely there must be another way other than feel and telepathy to know who actually built the instrument.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 14:26:50
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

If I print a bank note and pass it on as issued by the bank, then I would go to prison.Yet it seems only in the world of concert guitars where this business protocol is considered normal practice.


Pimiento you are not quite right. Its actually normal Spanish guitar shop practice to buy guitars from Valencia, take out the label and replace it with your own. You can see it many places. In Granada in the Bellido shops (and many others) in Sevilla in Postigo´s shops, in Huelva its Antonio Dovao etc.

In the end the Conde Hermano shops are more shops than anything else. They buy guitars and put their own label in them and sell them a lot more expensive. I know that some are made by someone which is in family with the brothers but most are made by others.

I´m VERY sure that all this guitar business is against european consumer laws. We have a right to know what we buy. But as always in Spain, there are many good and idealistic laws which are never used.

With respect of the guitar. If you need another guitar and you like it and the price is right, BUY IT. You can always sell it again. This crisis will (hopefully) end just as other economical crisis..

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2009 23:38:45
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Yeah...I see your point. I think its different when you are buying a student guitar for 400 euros or so. In that case a guitar cannot be hand made by a master luthier for that money. In those cases its normal for guitar shops to have their own "shop label" guitars.

What I am talking about is buying a hand made concert guitar from a known luthier with his signature inside it. If I went to you, ordered, waited and bought a concert guitar that you had signed on the label inside and then later realised that Rafael Moreno (for example) had in fact built the guitar, its a con....Not because you handn't sold me a good instrument but because I wasnt buying what I thought I was buying.

If I someone is prepared to spend 8000 euros on a guitar hand built by the Conde Hermonos and has a signed instrument that has not in fact been built by them then they have been decieved. Its the deception that is wrong....not the quality of the instrument, see what i mean?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 0:09:14
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

....so how do you know what you are buying?


Pimientito,

I posted this before but in case you missed it, I believe there is a professional version out there with a slightly different head stock design.
It's shallower with tighter radius curves and almost flat lines before the two peaks of the medio luna.
Pros play this model and I have seen new guitars (In photos) so I don't believe it's as simple as just being a Sobrinos guitar made at Gravina.
Might be Sean would know?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 0:40:53
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer

quote:

It's shallower with tighter radius curves and almost flat lines before the two peaks of the medio luna.


This is 1997 A26 Felipe V headstock. Are you saying the Felipe V pro model is different?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 1:54:18
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

If I someone is prepared to spend 8000 euros on a guitar hand built by the Conde Hermonos and has a signed instrument that has not in fact been built by them then they have been decieved. Its the deception that is wrong....not the quality of the instrument, see what i mean?


I think you are right Pimiento, but I think that's the way things are done these days.
What you would have bought is a Conde "Design", which they outsourced to a quality builder and the quality control on the final product would still be Conde.

Electronic equipment manufacturers have been doing this for ages.

In fact, many widescreen TV sets came out with very well known and respected Manufacturer's names at a premium price over the budget end of the market, yet when you opened them up all the sets contained exactly the same chassis. (made by a Turkish OEM manufacturer.)
The variation in the retail price depended upon the cabinet styling and the all important badge.

I'm sure Conde labelled guitars are absolutely first class instruments made by experienced luthiers using first class materials, but my own view is that there has been a certain amount of "Condemania" around for years, which actually fed on itself, so as the guitars got more in demand, they became more expensive, which made them more desirable as every newcomer to Flamenco guitar wanted one day to aspire to owning a "legendary", expensive Conde.
Thus the Conde "bubble" (and prices) grew and grew.

So I don't think they have any fraud or deception charges to face, and just like the PdL "signed" guitar, people have the freedom to purchase what they desire and pay any premium costs on an instrument with a label which makes them happy.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 4:45:00
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 120
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M

This thread has made me ponder how great it would be to be given £10,000 and to conduct a 'blind tasting' of guitars! With all this outsourcing, I'm thinking I'd much sooner commission a handmade guitar from Anders - unless HE'S also just sticking his labels on other people's work ? :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 5:44:03
 
Arash

Posts: 4409
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to MarcChrys

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcChrys

I'm thinking I'd much sooner commission a handmade guitar from Anders - unless HE'S also just sticking his labels on other people's work ? :)


I think Anders buys Guitars from Conde and sticks his lables on them


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 6:09:37
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

You could fool those who only know the “name” rather than the product that makes the name famous and worth that fame.
You could switch labels from an Armani or Brioni suit and transfer it on a polyester replica, but the result would be quite different: as we say in New York (about sticky people) “it will stick to your butt like a fifty dollar suit”.
You could apply the same rule to switching lables from a Conde to made in China, but I doubt many of the flamencos here would really be fooled. At best they would wonder if that label started producing in the Far East !!


Well gJ,
I would say that would hold to a certain extent.
For example, I can tell the difference between a good guitar and a piece of junk.
However I find it much more difficult to choose between two good guitars.
In the end, it becomes subjective and I really have to trust my own judgement and preferences as to how they feel and sound.
And at the end of the day I could easily choose something which pleases me, but someone else thinks is a dog. ("bow wow" )

If you are buying a painting or an antique or a bar of gold, you would normally want an expert evaluation before parting with your dough, but most amateur guitarists just rely on their own judgement and the label.

When I was in Colombia, I was sitting at a bar table with some colleagues, when these two guys came up offering us uncut diamonds "very cheap, for cash".
To prove their authenticity he demonstrated this by scoring a line down a Coke bottle on the table. "See...pure diamond señores..."

I knew nothing about diamonds, but suspected that there are many materials which are harder than bottle glass and also had no idea what the true market value was, so I of course passed on the offer, although maybe what the guy was selling was kosher and I would indeed have made thousands of bucks on the deal!
Somehow I don't think so though!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2009 6:11:26
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