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Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to ohjelo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ohjelo

Sorry for reviving this thread.

I'm seeling a lot of Condes being marketed as Paco De Lucia Style, but they are really just using a similar Rosette. That being said, do Rosettes affect pricing/quality on these factory guitars?


Paco used about 7 main Condes for recordings and concerts throughout his career, 3 blancas I can ID from the 1960’s, and 4 negras, two from 1975, however all of them would be considered “stock” models from that maker at the time he acquired each one. In that sense, any stock “conde” is a Paco de lucia “model’. So what is left to actually getting close to the same instrument is looks (since sound is Subjective IMO as I taught myself with my own guitars). So Pegs vs machines, back and sides cypress vs rosewood (two were indian, one Brazilian, last one something more exotic like Pau ferro but not sure), headstock (one of his favorite condes had Manuel ramirez style head and pegs) media luna (woo woo! LOL), then overall finish color (at least two of his guitars got a complete red make over at some point, and one guitar got really worked over) rosette (one rosette on his first two negras is flipped on each guitar, two other negras had similar rosettes but slightly different, and his last main axe got the rosette CHANGED lol), tie block (seems minor, but his very first negra had an interesting design not used exactly on any other conde I have seen but it’s inline with their common styles). So with so much variety it’s not to hard to market a “paco style” guitar. Felipe conde has “copied” his last main conde but it looks most like the way it did in 1982. Copy guitars will be priced higher of course for deliberately using these details. Paco also had proper Paco de Lucia models for a few years made by Carrillo, and a handful of special guitars in his collection, but rarely used them. Devoe, Montero, Ramirez, Arcangel (borrowed from a friend?), Alvarez, and his posthumous album has a list of guitars he used by other makers.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2020 15:57:45
 
Filip

 

Posts: 266
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

Paco also played (at least) one concert with a blanca back in 2010, in Belgrade one month before that Moscow concert. It was the third or the fourth concert since the beginning of that tour, the story was that he wanted to change guitars and tried a few (as we can see) but none worked very well and pretty quickly he took his old Conde back.
I don't really know which guitar is that blanca he played though.



https://s3.amazonaws.com/allaboutjazz/media/large/b/4/0/b3c2c3541a9de8aa46003e2940537.jpg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2020 18:53:48
 
ohjelo

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Nov. 29 2008
 

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you, Ricardo. Your feedback is very insightful, as always!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2020 23:12:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Filip

quote:

It was the third or the fourth concert since beginning that tour, the story was that he wanted to change guitars and tried a few (as we can see) but none worked very well and pretty quickly he took his old Conde back.


That was hilarious . I feel bad for that guitar, man he wasn’t happy, he didn’t even bow, just like, “get the f outta here with this guitar”. It sounded fine, which is the funniest part!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2020 2:35:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Filip

That was awesome! He was ready to toss it on the floor. It sort of looks like the neck or string spacing might be more narrow compared to his Conde. Maybe that was throwing him off or something, who knows.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2020 4:30:34
 
Filip

 

Posts: 266
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

Paco played in Rijeka two days before Belgrade. I've heard that they we all supposed to fly to Belgrade, but something came up and Paco had to travel by car on the same day of the concert (it's about 5.5 hours drive, plus waiting to cross the border which could have been an extra hour or easily more) and arrived just before the concert began. The story goes that in a rush Paco put his jacket inside out at the beginning, and after finishing rondeña he went off the stage to change it.

I remember some people from the audience yelled at the beginning of the concert (you can hear it in the video), that was strange and Paco was probably confused. What happened was that when Paco came to stage, a bunch of reporters entered and lined just in front of the stage to take photos as he was starting to play, which pissed off people in the audience so they yelled at the reporters to sit down on the floor. The same happened to me in Budapest, the stage was about 1 meter high from the ground, I was in the center first row and just when Paco started playing alegrias a bunch of reporters came in and I could not see anything...I said **** that, got up from my chair and approached the stage myself with hands and head down on it. I did not pay $100 to watch the crowd while Paco is rocking por alegrias behind.

I also have a story about Paco being late on the concert, it was in Belgrade in 2007. I was hanging out with other group members at the back entrance of the venue hall, when Paco arrived literary five minutes before the concert was supposed to begin, coming with his guitar and straight from the airport because he was supposed to arrive on the same day earlier but his flight was delayed. The concert started one hour late, but it was probably the best that I attended (out of 7). There are videos on yt, not good quality, but we can see Paco in the good mood and enjoying playing.

Catch him here at 18:49-19:10, and also at 23:50

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2020 10:14:28
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Filip

Always like hearing the Paco stories. Was a good video of the Algerias from Luzia. Reminds me I need to get that transcription book of Luzia if I still can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2020 1:39:29
 
Filip

 

Posts: 266
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Was a good video of the Algerias from Luzia. Reminds me I need to get that transcription book of Luzia if I still can.


Totally, and that little improvisation at the end of bulerias was amazing.
About the book, I remember looking for it a couple of years ago but could not find it online. I finally got it in a store near Atocha in Madrid.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2020 9:59:20
 
aw2014

Posts: 13
Joined: Aug. 10 2014
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to RobJe

I have found this conde label museum
https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/hermanos-conde/labels/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2021 17:38:18
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

The main Conde played in concert by Paco in his last 20 years is the one Mundo-flamenco had a photo shot of.
By heart I’d say a 1977 with pau-ferro back and sides; bracing is 7 fans + 2: the main pattern used by Conde in these years and till 1985. The maker was not Faustino in person but one of the Conde workers: the guitar was among those sent every year to Paco’s circle by Faustino. Mariano Conde supervised a repair (a crack on the top parallel to the fingerboard).
Originally the guitar was finished with the usual Conde orange nitro varnish but it got ruined and Vicente Carrillo refinished the top of the guitar with clear lacquer at the time when they started their collaboration for the Paco De Lucia guitar series. The rosette of the guitar is made by order by a well known German rosette maker.
A friend of mine was in the circle of musicians - gitanos close to Paco. He told me that guitar was stiff and really nothing special but Paco liked it particularly for the stiff “pulsacion” in concerts. He said Paco had better guitars home (Conde, Sobrinos, De Voe and Ramirez) and didn’t like to practice with the ‘77 Conde at home. Years later Paco left an interview in front of a dedicated cabinet full of guitar cases and confirmed the circumstance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2021 9:08:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Echi

quote:

By heart I’d say a 1977 with pau-ferro back and sides;


The guitar was 1975. The label was changed for some odd reason as well as the veneer face plate on the head stock. Rosette was only partially changed, the inner tiles. He first used it in 1982 with mclaughlin and it was honey orange. You can see a nice close up in the Saura movie Carmen. He had it refinished in Red in 1984 at least once again in 1997, until Carrillo did a mess on it in 2005. I was told that he was shocked when it came back from Carrillo’s , like he just wanted it “touched up” for the next tours as usual. I suspect something went wrong there and an emergency intervention went into effect.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2021 20:00:33
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

I heard this story too but someone else told me that the 1975 and 1977 Conde are just 2 different guitars with sides with similar wood grain. I Don’t know.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2021 9:17:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I heard this story too but someone else told me that the 1975 and 1977 Conde are just 2 different guitars with sides with similar wood grain. I Don’t know.


Someone else is therefore confused.

Look, I spent a lot of time dispelling the confusion on this thread...follow it to the end where I got a nice shot of the different labels, but the center brace on the back has the same markings. If you can explain why they changed the rosette it would be a big mystery solved.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317442&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=1975

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2021 16:11:58
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo, it's not definitively proved it's just the same guitar even though you gave good evidences of it.
I had to replace a rosette once (a real pain in the neck) for the same reasons that probably drove Carrillo to do it: those commercial rosette are less than 1 mm thick and if you have to strip the varnish way you can easily damage the rosette or have it discoloured.
It's less understandable why to replace the headstock plate or the label but this is a different matter.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2021 20:02:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Echi

quote:

Ricardo, it's not definitively proved it's just the same guitar even though you gave good evidences of it.


Huh? It’s 100% certain the same box (top, sides, back).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2021 20:31:03
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to Ricardo

Got some researches and you’re right: it’s the same guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 11:26:20
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