Whom do you trust regarding your playing?

Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

other guitarists on the same "level" as you

11% (4)

guitar teachers / "pros"

40% (14)

friends

0% (0)

dancer

2% (1)

other group members

5% (2)

non-flamenco people

0% (0)

yourself / your ear

40% (14)

Total Votes : 35

(last vote on : Jan. 22 2009 18:10:58)

Message

XXX -> Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 13:56:49)
[Poll is anonymous, LOL! You can select multiple choices.] This seems stupid, but i think it can be a real confusion. And im 100% sure, most of you know this feeling. As a flamenco guitarrist in a non-flamenco environment, its like living in a paralel universe. Or, how another guitarrist told me, living in the desert. Everybody heard of flamenco, but noone knows what it really is. Apart from those who do it themselves. So my question is... from your experience and your preferences... whom do you trust the most in your environment to comment regarding your playing? I mean general playing skills, not just accompayning. Normally i guess a very good guitarist, which is often a teacher, should have the best knowledge on it. But also teachers are persons with their own preferences... i have received all kinds of reactions from "pro" guitarrists... from almost disappointment to enthusiastic compliments, for the same playing. Of course... everybody can make a valid statement on your playing, if hes "got an ear" for it. But generally, whom do you rely on the most?

Ricardo -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 14:05:05)
I am harder on myself than anyone I have ever met....yet....

XXX -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 14:08:56)
yes, thats the flamenco guitarrist syndrom [:D][X(] For that i also have included an option "yourself / your ear"

Arash -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 14:26:55)
I can tell you, whom i absolutely dont trust. That would be my Familly and my friends, because they always tell me OLE, i played very well, which is more or less a lie but abvious. OR my Dad and my Mom used to tell me that i play too loud and i should play with less Volume which is of course also a LIE in Flamenco! (They just said that because they had enough of flamenco btw) Ok, second i dont trust non-flamenco people either (which were only my friends until now and which always told me that i am good as mentioned ....but they tell me that i was REALLY good when playing Otmar-Style-Rumba). So, no i dont trust them. Hmm.....whom do i trust? I would say, first of all myself like Ricardo said, because i think i am at a stage where i know where i suck and where i am making progress and so on.... After that, other guitarists on the same "level" , OR even slightly weaker than me OR of course "Pros" and teachers. But IMPORTANT: i have to know them and their preferences first. I mean for example, here in the foro i created a feeling to know more or less whom i can trust on these issues after this time

John O. -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 14:34:30)
NOBODY, THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET ME! [&:] Seriously, I'm my worst enemy, ALWAYS looking for someone to say "you did alright today." Horrible...

c -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 14:47:49)
dont trust drunks one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, ele,vin,twelve

srshea -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 17 2009 15:44:02)
About a month ago I had my first lesson with a teacher since I’ve started with flamenco, which was a, shall we say, “illuminating” experience. I’m good at being honest with myself, and tend to be ultra-harshly critical of most of my endeavors, so I didn’t go in thinking I was some kind of hotshot who had it all figured out. I did think that I had certain fundamental things somewhat safely under my belt, though, so it was a bit humbling to have it bluntly pointed out to me that I was doing so many things wrong. After I pushed my ego aside I used this redirection to my advantage and went for a back-to-basics approach for some stuff, and that’s all been to the good for me. For the most part I’ve played in a vacuum, which is probably the same for a lot of people here. When my girlfriend tells me that it “sounds great”, that of course is very sweet (though when I’m frustrated and struggling with something, hearing that it sounds “great” can sometimes get my blood boiling…), but it’s not really “helpful” towards making me a better player, since she’s not necessarily able to tell whether I’m playing well or not. I figure she thinks the less she hears me screaming and swearing when I’m upstairs practicing, the better I must be doing. It’s not listed as an option on the poll, but I’m gonna cast my vote for “the video camera”, which can be a much more accurate and honest extension of “yourself/ your ear”. It can be very surprising, heartbreaking, but ultimately helpful to see just how different something looks and sounds through the cold, disinterested lens of the video camera than it did when the guitar was in your lap. I think the scent of cypress may have some sort of intoxicating effect that clouds your perception and judgment…..

John O. -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 2:28:33)
quote: dont trust drunks one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, ele,vin,twelve They're usually pretty easy to catch though,

Stu -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 3:12:06)
no one!![:D] just kidding I'd prob trust some of you guys if I ever uploaded something, and I'd trust my teacher and maybe that's it right now.

XXX -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 4:37:31)
quote: ORIGINAL: srshea It’s not listed as an option on the poll, but I’m gonna cast my vote for “the video camera”, which can be a much more accurate and honest extension of “yourself/ your ear”. It can be very surprising, heartbreaking, but ultimately helpful to see just how different something looks and sounds through the cold, disinterested lens of the video camera than it did when the guitar was in your lap. Yes, its very motivating to see that you not only sound bad when playing, but also look bad [:D][8\|] Anyways, of course thats a good advice to record yourself. Another thing that made me start this thread, which i forgot to mention is these conversations i had with a dancer. I didnt know any falsetas for that choreography and so i started to play seemingly randimized chord sequences and rythms, which not only didnt fit to the choreography (maybe a little bit), but were also an embarrassment for every guitarrist to witness. My playing was the concentrated incompetence. It was hard to convince her of that. Much harder than to learn some falsetas and chord sequences (letras). The problem with the letras is that there is no singer, and i always thought its senseless to play standard accompayning chords. I wanted to create new chords, but now i have no time for that. Then i met another dancer who was the exact opposite. She would tell me many little spots and details where i can improve my playing. I had the impression she really made some thoughts on how the music fits the choreography. Before, i got one feedback for one whole 8-minute-choreography, now every second compas was "analyzed" (in a good sense). Why do i tell this long story? Well, at first i really didnt know where i stand with accompayning. I got told of playing "well" (sometimes dishonestly, as i found out later [8\|]). Now i have the security of knowing it better. I tend to believe its better to rely on NOBODY. It just leaves a bad taste, cause you really are left alone with all the work and no help. You invest time and if you get false compliments, you kind of feel cheated. Is it always like that, or did i just had a bad start? I mean if i read that for example even Ricardo says he is his hardest critic... whats the sense of doing flamenco in a group then, if you are more or less alone in (learning) what you are doing? If you are your hardest critic, then playing with others will not improve your playing, isnt it?

Ailsa -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 5:10:16)
quote: I can tell you, whom i absolutely dont trust. That would be my Familly and my friends, because they always tell me OLE, i played very well, That´s so different for me. Dave, my husband, is the most mild-mannered polite person I know. But if I ask him how my playing was he gives me the full and brutal truth!

Stu -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 5:14:43)
quote: Dave, my husband, is the most mild-mannered polite person I know. But if I ask him how my playing was he gives me the full and brutal truth! but thats great really isnt it?

Guest -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 6:39:48)
Hola The only person I ever trusted was my great friend José Millán, an encyclopaedic singer from the barrio de Santa María. In spite of my incompetence, he allowed me to accompany him and often pointed out what I was doing wrong. For example, once I accompanied him por polo and asked if it was OK. He replied, "Well you closed me down a lot". This simple statement opened a door. I knew how to play soleá, but polo links compasses together and playing a cierre at the end of each compás upsets the singer. It might work in soleá, but not always. In fact it does not work at all[:(] I learned from this simple observation to listen more attentively to the singer and only do a cierre when he called it. This was a new philosophy which works is all palos. Sadly José died last year, while I was trying make a recording of his cante. A better friend in flamenco I shall never find. Sean

Rain -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 7:18:43)
On this forum I trust Ricardo and Florians and Jason's ears regarding Flamenco. Classical, jazz and electric guitar my ears are in tune.

Arash -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 7:37:53)
I revise my views. The only person i trust from now on , will be Jacinto.

Rain -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 7:42:53)
I revise my views. The only person i trust from now on , will be Jacinto. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 18 2009 13:21:52)
quote: I mean if i read that for example even Ricardo says he is his hardest critic... whats the sense of doing flamenco in a group then, if you are more or less alone in (learning) what you are doing? If you are your hardest critic, then playing with others will not improve your playing, isnt it? Well, you must work with folks not affraid to critic you and give advice. And if they are not your level, still take whatever " critic" with some thought. The point of working with a group is hopefully to pic things up non verbal, in a playing context, that improve you. Assuming again the things you are picking up are GOOD. It is, saddly, possible to pick up things that are not good, such as shaky compas. But that is why it is important to hopefully work more with people better than you....IF they let you. [:D][:D] Anyway, I prefer, though it can make you nervous, to work with artists better than my level, in hopes of critic. That can only improve you. Working with say a lower level dancer that is criticizing your playing and demanding you to memorize and out of compas choreography for example, is not helpful. But remember, every kind of experience can teach you something. Ricardo

Ailsa -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 20 2009 2:58:11)
quote: quote: Dave, my husband, is the most mild-mannered polite person I know. But if I ask him how my playing was he gives me the full and brutal truth! but thats great really isnt it? Yes in theory. I know I can trust him to be honest. And I know he wants me to get better. For me two important things are HOW it is given, and the timing of it. When I'm so upset that I have to listen to Radiohead at full blast while I'm driving and cry copiously is not the time. I mean not that I ever do that [:D][:D][:D][:D]

at_leo_87 -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 20 2009 8:50:04)
i trust myself the most. but that comes after learning to be honest with myself. after all, you're with yourself 24/7. how much time do you spend with other people? what they know/think of you is only based on the impression you give them for a relatively small moment of time. they only get a glimpse of your potential. and even then, it can be skewed by bias/prejudice/jealously/arrogance/etc. only you know your true limits and capabilities. that's not to say you can't learn from others. but it really depends on who. for instance, there's always jealously among friends, family members who think everything you do sounds nice, snobby musicians who want to put you down because they don't want competition, etc. you can't always depend on others to tell you what you need to hear. you need to learn to do that for yourself consistently. then there's people like ricardo, who are knowledgeable and truly want to help. those people are rare and are always worth listening to. ailsa, i have the opposite of what you have. my girlfriend always try to sugar coat things slightly. it takes a bit of work to get the "full and brutal truth." but when she does, it's a good shake to the ego. the biggest denial/trap is thinking you know/can do everything perfectly already and there's no room for growth.

XXX -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 20 2009 9:24:06)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo But remember, every kind of experience can teach you something. Hehe yes, i had to learn to think like that [:D] I am on this "positive thinking" trip...

HemeolaMan -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 20 2009 11:02:51)
I trust my teacher, if what he says makes sense. I always examine the logic. if something isn't logical, or isnt physically sensible, I won't do it. but a teacher is more of a guide. Ultimately you teach yourself, and they are there to critique and correct you.

Exitao -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 20 2009 11:47:47)
I don't trust myself to play in front of people. Or animals. Well, anything that can look at me with pain in its eyes.

Florian -> RE: Whom do you trust regarding your playing? (Jan. 22 2009 18:20:40)
I think all of the above but ultimateley u have to trust yourself most of all (everyone gives the best advice to them but..you are the only one who has a picture in your head of the kind of guitarrist you wanna become ).. if theres a guitarrist you like.. trust people who sound like him or him at the same time you will never know where a good idea can come from.. and none of this guarantees that you wont be wrong or that the advice of a pro is the best for you..each day we learn...we go in circles, we have litlle brakethroughs..we have fallbacks, we waiste time with useless stuff...all of it its part of the jurney making wrong decisions is just as much part of our training as anything else we are all brutally honest with ourselfs regardless of what we might say....

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