Tangos Alzapua (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 6:35:19)

Damn, Damn, Damn!!!

Does anybody have any idea how this guy does the alzapua beginning at 0.30?



I've tried slowing it down and everything, but still can't work it out.[:@][:@]

I'll keep experimenting and if I come up with anything I'll post it.

This is driving me flippin' mad!!![:@]

cheers,

Ron



Stu -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 6:48:02)

those dudes were cool!

they look exactly the same though!!! both with their fags hanging out! weird!

did you take that vid ron?? apparently they're from aberdeen!! maybe you could go find him and get it from the horses mouth

Ill try to see what i can make of the alzapua....probably nowt!

stu



Ron.M -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 8:47:01)

quote:

did you take that vid ron?? apparently they're from aberdeen!!


Nah...That's just Jim posting misleading info on the internet. [:D][:D]

I'm "kinda" getting it now.
It's a bit like an optical illusion, only in guitar terms. [:D]
There's no great difference in alzapua technique...it's all down to how you hear the phrasing....I think.
That's often what causes a lot of trouble IMO...you know...changing on beats to off beats etc.

I'll try again tomorrow maybe.

cheers,

Ron



NormanKliman -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 10:01:46)

Here's a rough version of the pattern he's using. It kind of goes to mush at the end, so I've indicated one possibility. The trick is it starts on beat 4.5 (four and) and takes a footing on each beat 4.



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Pimientito -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 10:21:18)

I Norman. I hear it differently. I thought he was doing ligado in the alzapua. I tabbed a simpler version. This isn't what he's doing in the video but its a simplified way of getting the phrasing. I'll slow it down tomorrow and tab what he does.



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Ron.M -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 10:25:30)

Pimientito,
Any chance you can make a small slowed down vid on a webcam or something for those of us (me) who don't follow tabs?

I think it's one of those things that once you see it done once or twice, the penny drops and it all fits into place.

cheers,

Ron



Pimientito -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 10:29:25)

Eerrr....Techno dunce here would love to but not sure how.
If i use the video on the digital camera i can post the .avi directly yes? i dont have to re format it or anything? I'll do that now, meanwhile.....
Can you PM me with instructions of how to make a web cam video and post it.



Pimientito -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 10:40:37)

Ok here is the video cam thing. Its old strings and no thumb nail. Its not a performance...just to show the idea ok!


...wait a sec...go to uploads.



Ricardo -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 13:34:04)

norman was close but it starts after beat 1 and you take a "footing" on ONE.

E----0------0--------0-------0---------------
B-3-3----3-3-----3-3-----3-3---------3-----
G-3-3----3-3-----3-3-----3-3------3-3------
D-3----3-------2--------0-----------0--------
A----------------------------------3----(1)-3-
E----------------------------------------------

E----0------0-------0-----------------------
B-3-3----3-3----3-3---------3--------3-----
G-3-3----3-3----3-3------3-3------3-3----
D-2----2-------0-----------0--------0------
A-------------------------3--------1----(0)-1-
E----------------------------------------------

E----0--------0----------0--------------------------------
B-3-3-----3-3-------3--3--------------------------------
G-3-3-----3-3-------3--3--------------------------------
D-0--------0---------0-------------------0----------------
A--------4--------3--------------------1-----(4)-1(p)-0--
E-------------------------------0(h)4----------------------

Trick is on the "ah" of count 4, you pull off one fret as the thumb comes up. So you hear two notes.

Ricardo



cathulu -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 15:14:37)

I must admit that was a cool tangos. I really felt at times he was going to jump into a bulerias, when he is doing the Bflat with the high e and f trilling for example - very bulerias to my ear. For example around 8 seconds at at 40 seconds. Also he is dangerous with the A chord in the beginning I think, but it is cool.

So that feeling, is it my lack of experience or is it normal to feel that?

That Alzapua is killer! Is it better to us the thumb or also to rotate the wrist. It seems he is all thumb? That speed took years to develop no doubt!



cathulu -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 15:22:27)

PS, if someone could upload a slowed down version counted I would be eternally grateful! Not sure what that means really, I guess maybe 2 points?

OOps, I just noticed it is already there... no worries



mrMagenta -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 17 2009 16:50:57)

That's a very cool alzapua. Furious!

Here's a tab with measures and beats based on what Ricardo posted. Hope I'm reading things right.



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NormanKliman -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 18 2009 8:27:57)

Hey, that was great! Sounds to me like you guys got it right![:)]

Pimientito, I saw those ligados but didn't get to thinking about them until after I'd posted. I wrote it out quickly because I was in a hurry to get dressed for company last night, and I suddenly remembered the ligados as I was standing in the shower. I do a lot of thinking there. [:D]

Uh, anyway, it makes a lot more sense for that kind of alzapúa to start on 1.5 and take the "footing" on beat 1, like Ricardo is saying.

Pimientito, that was cool of you to upload that on the other thread. I haven't checked it out because of the file size, but I got to learn about that, too, in addition to the falseta, thanks to Adam's post.

Cathulu, if I've understood you correctly, maybe what you're hearing are chords that are pretty commonly used in bulerías. I used to hear a certain part of siguiriyas and bulería por soleá as being nearly identical, because the guitar chords were very similar. About wrist rotation, IMO the less the better (but whatever works best, as they say).

That was fun!



Pimientito -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 18 2009 9:17:57)

Cheers Norman!!

I wont tell you where I do my best thinking [:D] As I said sometimes you hear it differently and I thought it was ligado just because of the speed. Saying that my ears are not as practiced or as accurate as Ricardo so I tend to follow his advice and corrections when he points them out. He nailed that last little phrase so thanks Ricardo.

Im going to persevere with the video software and figure out how to make the file size smaller. Its something I should have figured out ages ago but it seems useful to be able to do that now so I will keep at it.



Ricardo -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 18 2009 12:51:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrMagenta

That's a very cool alzapua. Furious!

Here's a tab with measures and beats based on what Ricardo posted. Hope I'm reading things right.




Cool thanks man! Only thing to make it perfect would be to add golpes, stroke directions, and the last note of measure 3, Bb, should pull off to A.

Cathula, yeah, a lot of things in the that key, "por medio" are interchangeable so long as you also change the rhythm on it. For example that measure 3 of this falseta we discuss, if you start that alzapua on count 3 of bulerias, that is a typical buleria phrase right down to the last A note.

Ricardo

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cathulu -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 18 2009 16:00:37)

Thanks. I have tried to listen to a few tangos as time goes by, yet this is the only one where I could hear the bulerias idea and thought at any time he might jump into it. Like moraito, romperseserones, I never had that feeling really. Either I am hearing something not there, or I am hearing even better... not sure which one is the right one... [:D]



srshea -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Jan. 18 2009 20:02:57)

Nice work, everybody! It’s cool to see the evolution from hastily scrawled-out tab to fancy computerized notation. I recognize that tabbing style from all the Flamenco-Teacher stuff. Is that Guitar Pro or something? The program Norman uses at his site is nice, too. I’ve never used any of that kind of stuff but have always figured it might be nice to get around to installing something like that one of these days….



jaggedsphere -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 18 2011 18:54:03)

Video unavail. -user closed YT accnt?



Ron.M -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 18 2011 20:00:55)

I'll try and upload the s-l-o-w-e-d down version tomorrow and see if anyone can account for ALL the notes and ALL the beats with their versions.
It's trickier than you think...but sure...you can get a kinda approximation...but it doesn't sound as good as the original IMO...I still can't work out how he does it.

cheers,

Ron



ToddK -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 18 2011 20:21:15)

Ron, i think your memory is fading or something.

I spent a day working that one out for you, and i posted a video.

You dont remember that?????

Dont know if you thought it was accurate, but trust me, its exactly spot on.



cathulu -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 19 2011 2:20:53)

Glad your back!



Ron.M -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 19 2011 7:09:17)

quote:

Dont know if you thought it was accurate, but trust me, its exactly spot on.


I think I remember it Todd and I commented that it was close, but didn't account for all of the notes/beats he plays.
I can't find it at the mo..

cheers,

Ron



rombsix -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 19 2011 7:35:03)

quote:

I think I remember it Todd and I commented that it was close, but didn't account for all of the notes/beats he plays.


I'm with Todd - I firmly believe it was 100% correct in Todd's video.



Ricardo -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 19 2011 14:19:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

I think I remember it Todd and I commented that it was close, but didn't account for all of the notes/beats he plays.


I'm with Todd - I firmly believe it was 100% correct in Todd's video.

So where's the vid? What I remember was this by mark, which is totally wrong as we all agreed above:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=98584&p=12&tmode=1&smode=1

I can't find ToddK's version, and in that thread he doesn't point out Pim's mistake.

Also found this with slowed audio:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=141012&p=6&tmode=1&smode=1

Ricardo



Ricardo -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 19 2011 14:43:35)

ah found it! ToddK removed it so I guess we will never know if he did it exact as tabbed. (The tab is correct). Seems Ron was not TOTALLY satisfied either. (Damn todd why did you delete it?????[:@])

The thing that bugs me is Ron may be correct in his persistence, but the problem is, the original guy is not so clean IMO. There are for sure some hairier alzapuas then this one too. I stand by the tab above, too bad Ron still needs a video after ALL THESE YEARS!!![:D]

That should be the new challenge, someone make Ron happy and teach him this thing! [:D][:D][:D]

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=156803&mpage=2&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1&key=



ToddK -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 20 2011 5:33:41)

Ricard, your tab is correct. Its identical to the video i posted.

I could just make another video, but there's no point, cause Ron
refuses to believe its right.

Though its played really fast, its a simple riff, and the best thing to do
is let Ron sort it out himself.
He'll eventually figure out we were right. ;)

TK



n85ae -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 20 2011 13:26:34)

But since you deleted the video, it's kind of defeats your argument that you played
it right .... Actually you're very good, so I do believe that you played it right. In
fact the only reason I'm commenting, is it seems rather silly to argue that you
played it right, AND posted a video. But then there's no more video ...

That's like the arguments my kids provide, but Dad, I DID ... REALLY ...

Regards,
Jeff



Ron.M -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 20 2011 16:47:08)

Hi Todd,

Certainly no offence to you and Ricardo who are amazing guitarists.
But I had the slowed down version practically imprinted on my brain at the time as I had been listening to it in detail for weeks and weeks.
Sure your version sounded great, but there was something not quite right about the ending of the first phrase (I think it was the C-D-Bb-D-C bit that is very strong in the original).
I know it's a minor point in the big picture, but things like that bug me as to how he did it.
It's been a long time since I saw your vid and a lot has happened since then, so I'm not 100% certain now ...surely you must have it lurking somewhere on your hard disk?
I just thought that since Rafa had been posting that it may be possible to clear it up once and for all...

cheers,

Ron



ToddK -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 20 2011 18:02:21)

quote:

But since you deleted the video, it's kind of defeats your argument that you played
it right .... Actually you're very good, so I do believe that you played it right. In
fact the only reason I'm commenting, is it seems rather silly to argue that you
played it right, AND posted a video. But then there's no more video ...

That's like the arguments my kids provide, but Dad, I DID ... REALLY ...

Regards,
Jeff


I couldnt possibly care less about what you think.
Regards,
TK



ToddK -> RE: Tangos Alzapua (Oct. 20 2011 18:03:51)

quote:

Sure your version sounded great, but there was something not quite right about the ending of the first phrase


Nope, it was right on the money Ron. Ive transcribed stuff 10 times more
complicated than that simple riff.

As i said, time to figure this stuff out on your own. Thats the only way to learn.

Best of luck!
TK



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