Fret Dots (Full Version)

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Exitao -> Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:13:20)

So, my guitar doesn't have any. I miss having them.

Any pointers on how to learn to not need them?

Or can anyone recommend a good stick-on product?



stevnp -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:27:40)

Kling-Ons do fret marker dots, semi-permanent and temporary in the same pack. Not sure what the difference is.
I have fret dots on my classical and I like them.
Some people call them 'dummy-dots' but I think that's just snobbery!

Steve.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:31:16)

Without one near the seventh fret I get lost pretty easily.

So are fret dots unflamenco?



Ron.M -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:43:12)

I liked fret dots (on my steel string guitars) before I started using a capo.
Then they hinder as much as help IMO.

cheers,

Ron



srshea -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:48:15)

Yeah, moving up the fretboard without reference points can hard, but I think it’s probably best to get used to it. I think fret dots would be un-flamenco in the sense that the varying placement of the capo totally changes those reference points, so I think it’s best to be able “re-contextualize” the fretboard in various positions without that visual guide.

edit: oops. Ron beat me to it.



mark indigo -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 11:57:40)

quote:

So, my guitar doesn't have any. I miss having them.

Any pointers on how to learn to not need them?

Or can anyone recommend a good stick-on product?


if you have fret dots, permanent or stick on, you gonna get real confused when you move the capo from 1-2-3-4 etc.

you should be able to not get lost up to about 5th position anyway, or at least up to 3rd position at first.... to begin, put the capo on high so you don't have so many frets to get lost in! then work it downwards

another idea is as above for positions up to 5th, but then use the 12th fret as reference for high positions

if you aren't doing this anyway, think in positions, and learn scale patterns in position covering the fretboard (see the thread "HELP - E Phrygian Question (Claude Worms)") this will help you live without fret dots

also, very impotant, i don't think this came into the above mentioned thread, is the "CAGED" system of interlocking chord shapes (shapes C, A, G, E, D, can be used to play the same letter-name-chord at different positions on the fretboard). Learn these, but relate them to the scale patterns, so that at any position you know the scales, notes, arpegios, chords, and which scales and chords are in the positions above and below, down to the nut and up to at least the 12th fret.... knowing all this, and the process of learning all this, and with the capo at different frets, will make it much harder to get lost and much easier to not need fret dots!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 13 2009 12:23:19)

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Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 12:32:19)

quote:

I liked fret dots (on my steel string guitars) before I started using a capo.
Then they hinder as much as help IMO.

cheers,

Ron


I think more than one fret dot (only at the seventh fret) is unnecessary especially if the neck and body are joined at the twelfth fret. Dots at the third, fifth, seventh, ninth, etc. would be a nightmare with a capo.

quote:

One Fret dot at the 7th fret is how I see all other flamenco guitarists in my town doing it.

I suppose it is a "crutch" in a way but it is so helpful in immediately orienting you when playing.


It really seems to help.



Ricardo -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 14:04:59)

even today, the dots really mess me up with the cejilla. I have to like play in two different keys at the same time![&:]



kovachian -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 20:04:12)

My guitar has two dots, at frets 5 and 7. I'm not totally sure of the logic behind that, but I'm certainly used to it.



HemeolaMan -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 13 2009 22:43:15)

or give him some advice on how to get fret dots.

I use some whiteout on the side of the fretboard, you wont need it on the fingerboard.

dots at 5 7 9 and 12 are fine for me!

and i never have any trouble with a cejilla



gj Michelob -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 14 2009 4:46:43)

i so agree with them dots or position markers posing a problem, if one uses a capo and moves it up and down a few frets according to the tune/singer's requirements.

My German Vazquez Rubio came with a a liitle mop arrow on the 9th, and it drives me crazy when i move the cejilla.



Bogdan1980 -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 14 2009 13:20:48)

I saw on one guitar a dot was placed on the seventh fret but not on the fret itself. It was on the top side of the neck (on that black fretboard area or something); somehwere in that vicinity anyway. One dot, easily ignorable if needed I guess.

Bogdan



alaskaal -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 14 2009 14:54:19)

I had mine built with a dot at the fifth and a dot at the seventh. When I rarely use a capo it is on the second fret and the 7th fret dot becomes the fifth. My first flamenco guitar from the early 1970s had dots all up the neck 3rd, 5th, 7th and 12th. When I transitioned to guitars that didn't have them I would put a dot of the 5th and 7th with whiteout. That worked pretty good until just before a concert a friend's granddaughter "cleaned up" the neck for me. I didn't miss them, but put them back on as soon as I got the chance.

Al



pacodegarcia -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 14 2009 15:06:41)

I never used fret dots. The seventh fret is always under your nose.. so what's the problem ! [;)]



at_leo_87 -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 14 2009 17:28:35)

strings by mail has the kling on dots that stevnp mentioned.

http://stringsbymail.com/acsub.asp?tSer=84&dSub=Guitar+Protection+%2F+Care+%2F+Fret+Dots

i think they help in the beginning but can become a crutch later.

on a side note, does anybody know how to get rid of fret dots?



Exitao -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 15 2009 9:54:58)

Wow! Thanks for all the replies guys! If I was giving prizes, I'd have to give it to Mark, he'd get 2 cookies to everyone else's 1 cookie.
[:)]

It seems to me that if I do get some, I'll put them on the side, because putting them on the face just makes you hunch over your guitar to look. I think I want them just for the quick reference points, maybe at 5 and 7 because 12 is at the body. Mostly it's just to get started, initially position the fingers and let body memory help with the rest, except for the occasional big jump up or down the fretboard.


Thanks to at_leo_87 and stevnp for the product name and link.

at_leo_87:
Unless they's stick-ons, you can't really remove them, they're usually inlaid (embedded in the wood). Someone would have to remove them gently and then plug the holes with wood that matches the fingerboard material, but it would never look perfect and might not look good at all, where as nice fret dots can be purty.


HemeolaMan:
Um... have you ever removed the white-out? does it harm the finish at all?

I've actually seen cheap guitars with little paint dots in the side of the fretboard, if done neatly enough, and in a way that won't damage the finish, I think it would be worth considering.



mrMagenta -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 15 2009 10:23:13)

.. hum. I have a slightly off topic, dumb question. I understand their function as a guide to find the correct fret, but does the placement of the dots (at 5, 7, 9, 12) actually signify anything?

12 is the middle of the string, 5 and 7 are subdivisions of the string with natural harmonics.. but then there's 9 and sometimes 3.

I play more with capo than without so I'm happy not to have them on my guitar, but if it's only one dot then I can see how one for instance, can put the capo on say 2nd fret and think : now the dot is 5.



Exitao -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 15 2009 13:09:14)

I believe they mark the different positions.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but starting at the top fret, with no marker, is first position, first marker is second position and so on. - I think.

The positions refer to which mode/scale you're using.
http://www.theguitarsuite.com/modes1.html

(BTW: I only just found the site linked above, but it looks really handy.)



HemeolaMan -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 15 2009 18:07:39)

the white out doesnt usually harm finishes.

I mean if you scrape at it with your thmbnail and dig in and scratch you will harm it lol

I use a white out pen, which is very tidy. cheap too, like a couple dollars. that and it wont spill if you leave it in your case or whatever.

also, if you change a note in your sheet music it helps lol.

In all seriousness, 5 and 12 are good places for dots. the rest are nice. And dont listen to this garbage about fret dots making you less of a player. thats just ego and machismo talking. Use whatever tools you have available to you to maximize your skill.

as for the cejilla, simple, stop looking at the fret board lol. the only way this is a problem is when you think in tab and not in notation. think about notes, not about frets that will solve the problem real quick. plus your musicianship will improve and all sorts of wonderful things will happen when you memorize the notes on the board.

I encourage you to think of chords as chords with their proper names if you know them. not just hand at this fret in this shape.



Exitao -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 15 2009 18:32:52)

Yeah, I plan on learning as much theory and general technique as possible. It's part of why I chose the teacher I did.

But it's nice to hear what other people prioritise.

Thank!



at_leo_87 -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 16 2009 4:00:11)

putting the dots on the side of the neck might be hard to ignore if you do need to ignore them. while putting them directly in the middle will make them hard to see as you've said. maybe if you put them off the to upper side of the fret. it's an in between compromise. just a suggestion. [:)]



Exitao -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 16 2009 8:29:01)

I haven't felt the need to ignore them yet, like I said, it's usually just to set my fingers the once. Maybe as I go along with different capo positions (not a big problem yet), it might be an issue, but I think I can easily change the meaning of the fret dot as a reference point.


Was anyone going to correct me about the dots and positions?



Jim Opfer -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 16 2009 9:39:02)

quote:

I saw on one guitar a dot was placed on the seventh fret but not on the fret itself. It was on the top side of the neck (on that black fretboard area or something); somehwere in that vicinity anyway. One dot, easily ignorable if needed I guess.


I have one guitar with a very small dot marker at the 7th on the edge of the ebony, as you describe.
I find it's helpful but don't have to rely on it.
I quite often have the capo on the 2nd which places the dot on the 5th, so no problems there. If I capo on the 1st or 3rd I just remember my position is 'one up from' or 'one below' the dot.
Equally well, it's easy to ignore.
Don't see any problems either way and with some falsetas it's a good help.



bursche -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 16 2009 14:01:54)

I see them - without having any [:D]



Exitao -> RE: Fret Dots (Jan. 20 2009 13:23:15)

Just thought I'd share my solution in case anyone was interested

I was out a a huge supermarket and right by the stationary stuff, they've got a section for scrap-bookers and photo album stuff.

Fiskars has this product, stickers on a sheet of plastic, they are these little perfectly round drops of translucent plastic (imagine you have a drop of syrup on your table), with different colours and sizes.
The smallest being 1/8" (maybe 2mm?) in diameter and about 1/32" (less than 1mm) high.
They call them "Rain Dots."

I picked up a pack of the black tinted ones and they match the lacquer or whatever material was used to finish the side of my neck/ebony fretboard pretty well.

From a distance you can't see them at all. Up close you can. If I put my thumb in the top side of the neck along the fretboard, it feels like braille dots.
So I put one on the 5th and two on the 7th. Now I can feel it without looking if I want.


I'm still hoping to get a definitive answer about positions and fret dots, if anyone has any knowledge of why they're placed where they are, or where the typical fret dot pattern comes from, it would be cool.



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