RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - Lutherie: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=22
- - - RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=96458



Message

Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 15:39:10)

The 2004 Conde Hermanos AF25R Flamenco Guitar on eBay sold for $4,300 (free shipping). How would you like to lose $8,000+ USD on a guitar? Guitar Salon International made a killing on this thing.

I guess the rosette didn't help re-sale value...



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 15:59:24)

quote:

The 2004 Conde Hermanos AF25R Flamenco Guitar on eBay sold for $4,300 (free shipping). How would you like to lose $8,000+ USD on a guitar? Guitar Salon International made a killing on this thing.

I guess the rosette didn't help re-sale value...


As for anything else, one should invest that kind of money (or more) only if either truly pleased with the instrument (as i am) or if on istruments which have a great resale value. Conde normally does. I was quite fortunate with my transactions.

I am surprised this went for a price so distant from current values, less than half....



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 16:35:27)

quote:

As for anything else, one should invest that kind of money (or more) only if either truly pleased with the instrument (as i am) or if on istruments which have a great resale value. Conde normally does. I was quite fortunate with my transactions.

I am surprised this went for a price so distant from current values, less than half....


Sometimes the price isn't based on what you buy, but from whom...caveat emptor.



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 17:09:58)

quote:

Sometimes the price isn't based on what you buy, but from whom...caveat emptor.


Pgh_flamenco, you are saying that GSI (the supplier of the particular article sold on e-bay) had overpriced the instrument? It is possible, even though GSI prices seem lower than those charged by Conde Hermanos on thier Website, at Luthier prices for the Conde line seem significantly lower http://www.luthiermusic.com/product_info.php?products_id=159

I agree that GSI is certainly on the higher end of the pricing scale, and that such price gap will materialize when reselling outside of GSI's network. I am surprised the e-bay seller wouldn't offer it through GSI or other retailer where I suppose it is fair to assume he/she could have made out a bit better.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 17:26:27)

quote:

It is possible, even though GSI prices seem lower than those charged by Conde Hermanos on thier Website


It's not a good idea for a manufacturer to undersell retail outlets willing to carry their products. I wouldn't expect Condes' literature to reflect lower prices than their retail outlets.

Luthier's prices are substantially lower than GSI's. Salvador Castillo was selling guitars he built for around $2,000 USD--and these were commissions he personally built himself. Now, GSI carries his guitars and the price is $3,500 each! Other than a profit motive how can GSI account for the approximate 50 percent increase in price?



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 17:41:20)

quote:

Salvador Castillo was selling guitars he built for around $2,000 USD--and these were commissions he personally built himself. Now, GSI carries his guitars and the price is $3,500 each! Other than a profit motive how can GSI account for the approximate 50 percent increase in price?


Not to defend GSI, Phg_Flamenco, but the issue is now truning onto retailer's mark-ups. The devil's advocate question could be reversed to wonder why certain retailers apply standardized and expected mark-up rates, while others either over-charge or under-charge, compared to such threshold. Typically mark ups will vary according to different industries but 2 (twice the wholesale price) could be used as generalized rate (naturally it could be 3 times as much, as it is customarily for wine in restaurants).

Under-pricing could be viewed as unfair means of competing, but our US market allows either, and your caveat buyer will be the sole caution.

But pricing is also a marketing choice, which may determine the success of failure of either a supplier or a retailer offering the goods. GSI bills itself as the luxury boutique of classical and flamenco guitars, promoting competent advice and professionalism in a way that I find unique. I too had my shares of problems with GSI, but must report that ultimately were all most satisfactorily sorted out, also because of that courtesy and professionalism. GSI seems to enjoy a serious network of musicians and collectors gravitating about their product, and that will ensure constant top quality stock (see Reyes or Hausers) along with a fairly quick disposition of used or new instruments.

In my own case, service was excellent. We had a few disagreements about the action of one intsrument, but so do we on this Forum after all.



Taranto -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 23:01:30)

I think traditional style rosettes are generally ugly so I recently built a guitar without rosette. However I like the solid wood rosettes.

Anders, could you give some pointers on how you make those gorgeous rosettes?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 23:30:50)

quote:

As to the back and side of my "Caviuna" Conde Hermanos, don't you think this is brazilian or madagascar?


Mike, its impossible to say. It could be whatever brownish wood with figure. I would say Caviuna because its what it says on the label. Also the color is relatively Caviuna, even close to Pau Ferro on the sides. Some of the wood sold as caviuna is being sold under the same latin name as Pau Ferro (Machaerium) In fact, if you had given me the option of chosing Pau Ferro as well, then I would have said that. Look at the inside of the guitar. How big are the pores in the wood. Are they as big as on East Indian Rosewood?

2 things I know:

first, That many builders sell guitars called Braz rosewood and they are made with Caviuna.
second: A lot of Caviuna is being sold and few guitars are sold as Caviuna guitars.

I have decided not to buy anymore Braz, Caviuna, Madagascar, Jacaranda at the moment. The quality is VERY low and prices are VERY high. Its just one big cheat.

Last here you have a guitar that I made with Madagascar. This wood can have other color tones as well. But this is quite typical. Its easy to distinguish by its smell. Its sharp, especially when heated and very different from Braz or Caviuna



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 23:37:29)

quote:

Anders, could you give some pointers on how you make those gorgeous rosettes?


Basically you route the cahnnel and glue things into it. I start with the rings and end up with the center. Its a very rewaring and relaxing work. quiet and you can listen to music at the same time. Nice way to make a living. And why should I change this with a factory made mass produced thingie that has nothing to do with the traditional art that rosette making once was?

This particular rosette has Pink Ivory in the ring. I dont use colored wood, (besides black) and this gives a nice touch to cedar.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 6 2009 23:42:25)

quote:

Last here you have a guitar that I made with Madagascar. This wood can have other color tones as well. But this is quite typical. Its easy to distinguish by its smell. Its sharp, especially when heated and very different from Braz or Caviuna


I saw this picture on your site some time ago--just stunning, Anders.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 6:39:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

As to the back and side of my "Caviuna" Conde Hermanos, don't you think this is brazilian or madagascar?


A few years ago I bought a bunch of sets of Caviuna from a vendor in Spain. I was told confidentially by the sales representative that they were using the name to cover the fact that it was really Brazilian Rosewood without cites. Later this same vendor was temporarily shutdown by the government thugs in Spain and apparently had to pay a big fine for illegal importation. If the wood I have is not Braz. RW it is certainly a close relative. Everything about it screams Brazilian...smell, color, tap tone, hardness, texture, etc. Your guitar may indeed be Brazilian Rosewood. You can't tell by looking at a picture since Brazilian is remarkably variable.

When I first started building guitars there was no embargo on Braz. RW. The hardwood vendor in town had a huge pile of it sitting outside under a corrugated roof. I would sort through it looking for the quartered pieces to take back to the shop and saw myself. I wish I had bought it all now, amazing how fast the supply dried up with the advent of the embargo. I wonder how much of it gets burned every year in the Amazon.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 7:06:27)

John,

The story (if its the same) is a bit different. Maderas Barber had Caviuna that totally looked and smelled like Braz. The Guardia Civil confiscated the bunch in order to make DNA tests. It took some years and in the end it was said that it wasn´t Braz (rio) rosewood.
I saw and smelled the wood and it was pretty and with a good smell and taptone.

There are so many brownish woods from south america that its really a jungle.... also to find out what is what. And therefor there´s a big business going on selling whatever piece of this wood as the famous mystical and magical Rio rosewood. Its not a healthy business and I stay outside. There are so many other woods that work perfectly well for making guitars.



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 8:57:38)

Thank you John and Anders. I guess we could coin a new word after this.

CAVIUNA: hoax, deception, scam, generally the practice of deliberately making somebody believe things that are not true
such as in
verb: "i have been Caviuna'd into that scham", or noun: "that is so a Caviuna, man, watch out" or plural: "ain't falling for no Caviunas no more, dude, once bitten twice shy" adjective: "i do not trust his Caviuna Face", adverb "He was Caviunally persuading me to buy a guitar made of Brazilian Rosewood, which it was so not"!!!

I feel a slight yet unfailingly disturbing sense that I have been taken for a ride with my conde. I will love her regardless, perhaps more knowing her imperfect pedegree... yet...



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 9:58:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob





As to the back and side of my "Caviuna" Conde Hermanos, don't you think this is brazilian or madagascar?




Looking closely at it, Michelob, I would have to say it isn't the old Rio or Jacaranda, (Dalbergia Nigra) that I have worked with for the past 50 years; that comes in many different shades and colors. But it is a nice piece of work, imo.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 10:19:48)

quote:

Looking closely at it, Michelob, I would have to say it isn't the old Rio or Jacaranda, (Dalbergia Nigra) that I have worked with for the past 50 years; that comes in many different shades and colors. But it is a nice piece of work, imo. Tom Blackshear Guitar maker


'nice of you to intervene, Tom, with a comforting perspective.
When i resumed playing guitar, after a 10 year break, i purchased a classical guitar with B/S in a brazilian which turned out to be "cocobolo" (i had ordered the instrument and realized the banal trick upon seeing the pretty reddish shades). I did not buy this conde for the Brazilian, but notwithstanding it might have been that tricky madera. but i always thought it was madagascar rose... here is another pic from the Felipe V line, what are your thoughts..?



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ricardo -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 11:29:57)

My friends are from Bolivia and used to work in a guitar shop there. I think for a long time, many instruments were made with wood that looks like brazillian but is not. I showed some questionable ones to my friends, and they could name the trees they recognized,none Brazillian Rio. I personally don't care much, I think they are all pretty. Thing is, even in Bolivia, most of those trees are protected too. So even though it is not true Brazilian, it is just as illegal to use it now a days. The way the poachers do it is they cut logs in Bolivia, and send them down the river, so they don't have to take them out of the country. Sell it as Brazillian rosewood or something else from a different indigenous area, after they collect it.

Interesting that they did DNA testing and revealed Caviuna was NOT brazillian rosewood.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 11:40:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

quote:

Looking closely at it, Michelob, I would have to say it isn't the old Rio or Jacaranda, (Dalbergia Nigra) that I have worked with for the past 50 years; that comes in many different shades and colors. But it is a nice piece of work, imo. Tom Blackshear Guitar maker


'nice of you to intervene, Tom, with a comforting perspective.
When i resumed playing guitar, after a 10 year break, i purchased a classical guitar with B/S in a brazilian which turned out to be "cocobolo" (i had ordered the instrument and realized the banal trick upon seeing the pretty reddish shades). I did not buy this conde for the Brazilian, but notwithstanding it might have been that tricky madera. but i always thought it was madagascar rose... here is another pic from the Felipe V line, what are your thoughts..?




Whatever it is, I think the beauty of it is what compels us to look further at the other aspects of the guitar. Personally, Brazilian rosewood has a tendency to crack when you least expect it. The current guitar I'm working on is no exception, even though it is a beautiful wood. A builder will try to cover all the bases with it, as best he can, but this is the personality of Jacaranda. This is the reason most well known American builders have a limited warranty on it.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 12:22:03)

dip
quote:

Whatever it is, I think the beauty of it is what compels us to look further at the other aspects of the guitar. Personally, Brazilian rosewood has a tendency to crack when you least expect it. The current guitar I'm working on is no exception, even though it is a beautiful wood. A builder will try to cover all the bases with it, as best he can, but this is the personality of Jacaranda. This is the reason most well known American builders have a limited warranty on it.
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker


Diplomatically impeccable, Tom, or flawlessly PC, as they more losely say these days. I was hoping for an answer.... but i do realize the images may not provide all required data. I would hate to scratch the wood to submit to analysis, but i am tempted, just to settle this.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 13:39:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

dip
quote:

Whatever it is, I think the beauty of it is what compels us to look further at the other aspects of the guitar. Personally, Brazilian rosewood has a tendency to crack when you least expect it. The current guitar I'm working on is no exception, even though it is a beautiful wood. A builder will try to cover all the bases with it, as best he can, but this is the personality of Jacaranda. This is the reason most well known American builders have a limited warranty on it.
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker


Diplomatically impeccable, Tom, or flawlessly PC, as they more losely say these days. I was hoping for an answer.... but i do realize the images may not provide all required data. I would hate to scratch the wood to submit to analysis, but i am tempted, just to settle this.


If you are asking if the picture is showing Brazilian rosewood, then yes, this looks very similar to an old piece I used on one of my classical guitars. I think GSI resold that one with a rose rosette and spruce top.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 14:34:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

The story (if its the same) is a bit different. Maderas Barber had Caviuna that totally looked and smelled like Braz. The Guardia Civil confiscated the bunch in order to make DNA tests. It took some years and in the end it was said that it wasn´t Braz (rio) rosewood.
I saw and smelled the wood and it was pretty and with a good smell and taptone.

There are so many brownish woods from south america that its really a jungle.... also to find out what is what. And therefor there´s a big business going on selling whatever piece of this wood as the famous mystical and magical Rio rosewood. Its not a healthy business and I stay outside. There are so many other woods that work perfectly well for making guitars.


You're a lot closer to the action than I am Anders so I'm sure yours is the accurate version of what happened and I agree with you about E. Indian RW being just as good (maybe better) but it's certainly not as pretty. I'm a sucker for exotic wood scams. I can't tell you how many times I've been ripped off trying to buy wood at a discount price. The worst rip-off was from the biggest guitar wood vendor in California so I assumed they were honest [:@]. That one cost me $2500 back when that was a lot more money than it is now.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 7 2009 23:13:01)

quote:

but i do realize the images may not provide all required data. I would hate to scratch the wood to submit to analysis, but i am tempted, just to settle this.


Mike.
If you look through this (rosette [:D]) thread, you´ll see that when it comes to classifying brownish wood from South America, a picture is not enough. You have to very experienced to distinguish. The Guardia Civil knew that and made DNA tests......

The rest is just cheat. In all levels. The people cutting the trees are cheating, the sellers are cheating and the builders are cheating.

I´ve decided to say no..... I´m not going to enter this game. Its bad energy and a lot of money.

Besides, Its so easy to buy a beautifull piece of wood. Anyone with money can do that. Not really interesting.
What is interesting is the capacity of making a well sounding and well playing instrument. If you then add nice workmanship, then you have a very fine instrument. Whatever the wood!!!!!!



cathulu -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 9 2009 20:15:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL:

I feel a slight yet unfailingly disturbing sense that I have been taken for a ride with my conde. I will love her regardless, perhaps more knowing her imperfect pedegree... yet...


gj Michelob, I don't know why you feel slighted, the guitar label says Caviuna so what is the problem? I think you have a very beautiful guitar and you should be proud of it!

Mr. Eliasson - I commend you, I am glad you decide not to partake, if I was earning Euros and in Europe you would have my business. All this thrust for exotic woods and otherwise - we would cut down every god damned thing to get at it. The Pacific Northwest was thought almost to be limitless, now we are struggling to save what little Old Growth forest there is. You fly over and there are bald patches all over, or plantations with no genetic diversity. If there was one last Brazilian Rosewood it would still be cut down. Look at Europe, we think the Italian / Greek countryside is as it always has been - hell know, it use to be forests. We cut it all down. We are damned.



gj Michelob -> RE: Rose Rosette on Primera/A-1 Models (Jan. 9 2009 20:26:36)

quote:

Cathulu wrote.... gj Michelob, I don't know why you feel slighted, the guitar label says Caviuna so what is the problem? I think you have a very beautiful guitar and you should be proud of it!


Words to go to sleep by.
thx Cat



Page: <<   <   1 2 [3]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET