Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Full Version)

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cathulu -> Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 1 2008 20:14:17)

A bit of a philosophical question...

Just reading this book called "Flamenco" published in 1985 edited by Claus Schreiner. So the essays in the book and ideas that bore them go back, perhaps into the 60s and earlier.

In the book, one gets the definte feeling the "dedicated group of flamenco enthusiasts", all Germans, lament the modernization of flamenco with newer more vulgar, commercial flamenco music.

Funny, this is similar to the German ideals of the American West and the American Indian. They have all kinds of cowboy and indian clubs re-living the old west according to their ideals, distorted as they may be.

This patronistic attidude and belief in the "noble savage", I wonder, may have contributed to current trends like old school and new school flamenco, and infected our minds. I am half German by the way... and I am proud of my heritage so fellow Germans don't take this the wrong way.

Just wondering how this early German influence may have affected our views in appreciating the music... German culture is interesting, one of the few places that have no speed limits on highways yet is very rule bound.

What if they took a view of improvement and modernization? That was also a prevalent thought back then - in particular the European Immigrants take on the American Indian.

Food for thought anyways.



Jan Willem -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 2 2008 0:17:01)

I don't think there interpretation on flamenco or other stuff has a lot of influence on the real thing. There are a lot of country's where there's a flamenco scene. The netherlands, germany, but also Japan etc. But whatever they do with it, it's one way traffic when it comes to influence I think. I mean; nothing beat's the real thing, let alone would it be influenced by a derivative form of itself.

Just imo.

Thx for posting, interresting

JW



Ricardo -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 2 2008 4:41:42)

The VAST majority of people I meet that know at least a liittle about flamenco, regardless of their national or ethnic backgrounds (including those from spain), don't "get" or appreciate modern flamenco as much as "old school". The ones that appreciate the modern concepts (not so much commercialization, that is different), tend more to be artists themselves, or at least dedicated students. Commercialization should NOT be lumped into "modern flamenco" concepts. Commercialization has nothing to do with flamenco, regardless if it is a flamenco artist doing a pop song or not. The idea that "flamenco is dieing" goes WAAAAAAAAY back. Yet, here it still is today. Or is it just jazz fusion now?

Ricardo



edguerin -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 0:32:47)

To get back to the original thread:
For really Germanic influences you'd have to go way back to the (Visi)Goths and their influence on the Iberians...[;)]

Although Germans do have an affinty to Romanticism, the interest in flamenco in the late 60ies early 70ies is not a German peculiarity imo. "Alternative" and "ethnic" life-styles were very attractive to many at that time (and still are ...)
Gipsies (not just Gitanos) have been romanticized all over the world (e. g. "Tinkers" in Ireland), and as far as the "Noble Savage" is concerned, i believe that was JJ Rousseau ...

Regarding "flamenco-conservativity", just read Pohren ...



sam_m -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 4:52:23)

Interesting - I just found this book in the library and looks like it might make some good reading for this afternoon.



edguerin -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 6:15:54)

quote:

I just found this book in the library


which book? [;)]



sam_m -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 7:37:03)

Why, the one that started this thread, of course.

I also found another, which adopts a more musicological approach but decided to leave it until I'd read the former and gained a better understanding of flamenco history and such. I get enough musicology forced upon me as it is! [:(]

If anyone's interested, though it was called "Flamenco - Passion, Politics and Popular Culture" by William Washabaugh.



cathulu -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 20:45:15)

Yes, I have to check out this Pohren guy, he is quoted a lot.

My feeling however nieve and ill-informed was that the Germans were a fairly influential group on this modern rediscovery of Flamenco. There is not much in the bookstore - one of the only books was the Flamenco book I mentioned. What should I make of that then?

Granted, my language could have been better phrased though. If not the Germans, who else? Pohren,,, and???

Even the Gypsies do not live in a vacuum - they must have felt the influence. Look at the American thread to see influence!



edguerin -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 3 2008 21:26:29)

What about the French?

c.f. French web site



Ricardo -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 4 2008 5:29:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

Yes, I have to check out this Pohren guy, he is quoted a lot.

My feeling however nieve and ill-informed was that the Germans were a fairly influential group on this modern rediscovery of Flamenco. There is not much in the bookstore - one of the only books was the Flamenco book I mentioned. What should I make of that then?

Granted, my language could have been better phrased though. If not the Germans, who else? Pohren,,, and???

Even the Gypsies do not live in a vacuum - they must have felt the influence. Look at the American thread to see influence!


my opinion is that during the 50's through maybe 70's, many flamenco artists left spain, and more than just tour they settled in other countries, namely America. The result was the concept of "flamenco" got frozen in time for a while of what flamenco actually is, and the evolutions that took place in Spain had no affect or purpose. Hence the feeling that more modern flamenco styles don't seem to fit the description of flamenco is (was), in places outside of spain, and it is hard to accept for certain audiences and mind sets.

Pohren's book is the only one that was available forever and (probably now too) in the library in America on the subject. It was full of very good information about "puro flamenco", but at the same time very slanted in a personal direction and very opinionated. A smart reader will take the opinions with a grain of salt, and extract the excellent info from his books. Pictures too are good.



edguerin -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 4 2008 7:16:20)

There are three flamenco books out there by Pohren:

The Art of Flamenco 1962
A Way of Life 1980
Lives and Legends of Flamenco 1988



Kate -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 15 2008 9:21:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu
Even the Gypsies do not live in a vacuum


Surprisingly some till do. The kids I took on tour to America were invited on stage with the Funk Brothers in Detroit and they did not know one Motown song nor for that matter any of the Beatles songs. They had never heard of American country music or blues. Another time in a recording studio a Gitano percussionist was asked what he thought of the Clash and the Sex pistols, he had heard of neither.

I dont think that any other country has influenced Flamenco musically but they have definitely played a major part in promoting and appreciating flamenco.



edguerin -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 16 2008 0:14:01)

quote:

what he thought of the Clash



who?[:D]



Kate -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 16 2008 7:37:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin
who?[:D]


JE JE JE actually the Clash have connections with Granada. Joe Strummer was a regular visitor. His record company was called something like Andaluz Records ( cant remember excactly). When he died there was a homenaje here with all the surviving band members and ex members ( including the 101ers) playing in the Sacromonte. Rolling Stone did a story on it.

Stay free



runner -> RE: Germanic influence on Flamenco? (Dec. 24 2008 6:07:30)

Interesting thread. The best ways to "know" what is (or isn't) flamenco are to listen to a lot of it and also to read a lot about it. The book Cathulu referenced--Flamenco: Gypsy Music and Dance from Andalusia, edited by Claus Schreiner, is an excellent one. All of the books by Donn Pohren--The Art of Flamenco, Lives and Legends of Flamenco, A Way of Life--are classics. Best to get the 2005 (6th) edition of The Art, as it has Pohren's final thoughts and opinions as to where he thinks flamenco is headed. Paco Sevilla's biography of Carmen Amaya, Queen of the Gypsies, is a great overview of flamenco during the first half of the 20th Century. For a revealing insight into what Gypsy life (in Eastern Europe) is really like, read Isabel Fonseca's Bury Me Standing. Fonseca lived with and interviewed Gypsies all over Eastern Europe during the 1990s. A real eye-opener.

A question that comes up over and over is--Is flamenco whatever somebody decides to call flamenco? Or are there specific things or traits or features that make flamenco really flamenco? Books can help you decide. There are actually people who say that "Smooth Jazz" radio stations aren't really playing jazz. They also don't think that Kenny G is a jazz musician. I don't listen to jazz, so I don't know. But I know that, if I did like jazz (or thought I did), I'd try to find out by reading and listening as much as I could.

runner



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