mark indigo -> RE: "normal"? (Nov. 26 2008 10:19:35)
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One of the things I disliked about the Gitano and the reason I skipped it was that the feel was not right. I didn´t have a feel of my body controling the Guitar and I used it for some years.
i don't like it for the same reason, but it's still the best solution i've tried so far.... short of a bigger guitar![:D]
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Another thing is that it leaves marks on the guitar and that the 2 suction cups are so wide that it doesnt fit a flamenco guitar.
i don't mind about superficial marks on the guitar, there are some very slight marks on my guitar, but one solution would be to put some golpeador plastic on the waist of the guitar to protect it, i did that on another guitar.
re width, the support fits my guitar fine, which is odd, 'cos we've already established it's quite small bodied, and at least 10mm narrower than the width you build to Anders....[8|]
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Try putting the Gitano as far into the waist as possible.
yep, i'm there man! that's just where i have it!
trouble is, like i said, my left hand is fine, and my right hand fingers are on the strings fine, but the point where my right forearm contacts/rests on the guitar is way close to my wrist! and my wrist is bent down at quite an angle.... if the plantilla of the guitar was wider, my forearm would rest more like this excellent vid of Ricardo (hope you don't mine me using your vid as an example of good guitar-body proportions! not to mention, of course, excellent composition and performance!) posted just the other day by rombsix:
notice how when Ricardo is tuning at the very start of the vid he is using pulgar and his upper arm/elbow rests on the side of the lower bout of the guitar. when i do this my wrist is much, much further out from the face of the guitar and my wrist is bent more sharply to bring my thumb into the strings, because my forearm is much longer. I could hold my arm higher up, so would not need to bend wrist so much, but need to rest arm/elbow on guitar in order to get free movement from the wrist for pulgar and alzapua.
when he starts to play at about 00:8 he is using pulgar and fingers free stroke, and his upper arm/elbow is still resting in the same way on the guitar.... when i bring pima onto the strings to play this sort of passage the place my forearm rests on the guitar is a long way from my elbow, nearly half way from my elbow towards my wrist.
watch as he uses picado, there are various short bursts, some at about 1:50 and again from around 3:08, and he still doesn't need to lift his upper arm/elbow off the guitar. There's one point around 3:25 when he lifts his elbow up a little (watch the point of the elbow bone lift slightly). But when i use picado the point of contact of my forearm to the edge of the guitar is over half way from my elbow to my wrist.
I know there's a lot more involved than just the guitar proportions. No doubt about it, Ricardo has a better ear, better memory, better co-ordination etc. than me, and I'm not trying to blame my own inadequacies on the guitar proportions relative to body size, but.... despite all my work, hours of practise, and much thinking about postioning and relationships over 15-20 years, and despite having professional help with adapting my body shape and proportions to the guitar and the guitar to my body shape and proportions, i still keep returning to the thought that i want a guitar with a wider lower bout! ok, it will probably never happen, and if it did it would probably sound crap, but thanks everyone for you thoughts and ideas anyway....
.... and have you noticed that other monstruo that visits here, Jason, looks fairly similarly proportioned relative to the guitar to Ricardo.... coincidence?
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Mark, I know just how you feel
I've come to live with it (I'm 6'4'')
maybe we should start a support group or something... [:D]
edguerin -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 4 2008 7:59:27)
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maybe we should start a support group or something...
Yeah, I guess we could.[:D]
IMO the problem is the length of the forearm, so that either you have to angle your wrist excessively or "lift" your upper arm away from the bout ...
or else play in the classical position (raised left foot) like Oscar Herrero? (not muy flamenco though ...)[:(]
Anders Eliasson -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 4 2008 8:31:30)
I dont know. I guess I´m to small to have serious problems (6,1)
My invention works for me. And thats it. The Gitano puts the guitar in a good position but the "mechanical" feel, I dont like. Of the 3 you have found, I prefer the last but its for stel string acoustics.
Sitting with a foot stool is the worst for me. My back ant take it. Being under the left or right foot.
I use the gitano. I installed a piece of golpeador where the suction cups go.
It is really a great gadget, and i know what anders is saying about the feel, but honestly its not a big difference to me.
edguerin -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 4 2008 19:59:59)
What the gitano and similar gadgets does, is to support the guitar and change it's position relative to the player. That's fine for a more ergonomic posture and more relaxed playing. They do not however address the fact that a long forearm (i.e. noticeably longer than the distance bout-strings) forces the player to either angle his right wrist very sharply or to play much closer to the fretboard.
Anders Eliasson -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 4 2008 23:27:34)
Is it a problem to angle your right hand wrist? Isnt it something you eventually learn. There are so many things to be learnt. Normally it takes years just to learn how to sit with the guitar.
edguerin -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 5 2008 0:07:54)
Yeah, as I stated above, I've come to live with it (more or less).
But what I mean is the flexure of the wrist in relation to the space between arm and bout (i.e. resting on the bout or not). Here are some pix for clarity:
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Tom Blackshear -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 5 2008 3:14:53)
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ORIGINAL: edguerin
Yeah, as I stated above, I've come to live with it (more or less).
But what I mean is the flexure of the wrist in relation to the space between arm and bout (i.e. resting on the bout or not). Here are some pix for clarity:
This is the way I was taught back in 1957 to hold my wrist and I still play the guitar this way.
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Estevan -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 5 2008 10:05:21)
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This is the way I was taught back in 1957 to hold my wrist and I still play the guitar this way.
Which way? (I see two pictures)[8|]
Tom Blackshear -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 5 2008 10:40:59)
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ORIGINAL: Estevan
quote:
This is the way I was taught back in 1957 to hold my wrist and I still play the guitar this way.
Which way? (I see two pictures)[8|]
I was taught to hold my hand out straight then curve my wrist out and then bend my hand down, while keeping the wrist curved out, not quite as loose as the picture but more exaggerated with the wrist but flatter on the hand. When my wrist was trained it naturally falls this way but more relaxed. Copy the way Sabicas holds his right hand.
Okay this is something I actually know about!!!!!!
Straight relaxed wrists are best, they cause the least stretch and travel of tendons.
The more travel and stretch of tendons you have the more likely you are to have problems and the less efficient your movements will be.
mark indigo -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 18 2008 13:33:15)
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Of the 3 you have found, I prefer the last but its for stel string acoustics.
the pictures of the rest are all three on nylon string guitars, the text is referring to nylon string guitars, and then it also says half way down "Fits just as easily on a steel-string guitar."
which doesn't look so good to me, as it's probably not gonna stay put, but it does have a vid where the guy explains his forearm problemo...
and btw hemeolaman is spot on about tendon problems coming from a too tightly bent wrist....
Ricardo -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 20 2008 14:58:45)
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ORIGINAL: edguerin
Yeah, as I stated above, I've come to live with it (more or less).
But what I mean is the flexure of the wrist in relation to the space between arm and bout (i.e. resting on the bout or not). Here are some pix for clarity:
Not sure if it matters much, but I personally don't see what the issue is. I am a small sized player, relatively speaking, and I find myself using BOTH postions as shown in the pics. When playing with thumb or strumming, the pic on the left. When playing arps or picado, the pic on the right. My arm may rest or not on the top side of the guitar...it moves depending on what I play.
Ricardo
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As an aside: the older you get, the more important such "minor" problems get. With time they can cause real problems that can seriously jeorpardize performance.
srshea -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 21 2008 0:04:28)
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ORIGINAL: edguerin the older you get, the more important such "minor" problems get. With time they can cause real problems...
Aw, man. Why you gotta bring harsh reality into this deal? Why can’t you let me continue to delude myself into thinking that all this ergonomic awkwardness isn’t going to reap long-term pain and suffering years down the line?
I’m 6’3+, and as long-armed as they come. What about forearm reduction surgery? I’d only need to do the right arm, so that’s just half the price!
edguerin -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 21 2008 2:13:28)
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I’m 6’3+, and as long-armed as they come
Yeah, I guess if orangs can play guitar, then so can we long-armers:
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edguerin -> RE: "normal"? (Dec. 21 2008 2:18:02)
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w, man. Why you gotta bring harsh reality into this deal? Why can’t you let me continue to delude myself into thinking that all this ergonomic awkwardness isn’t going to reap long-term pain and suffering years down the line?
a) probably 'cause I'm a bit down the line ...[&:]
b) I have an affinity to Buddhism ...
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What about forearm reduction surgery?
Great idea! One could have a tendon-job done as well, to improve rasgueado etc. [:D]
