Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Full Version)

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michel -> Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 0:37:10)

dear forumites

I’m practicing a taranta, i’d like to add a tremolo part in which all melodic notes are played on B-string but i often play the E-string by mistake, it seems difficult to play a long tremolo part only on B-string without mistakes like hitting the E-string.. Does anybody have any advice for this?
(...yes: practice...;-)

thanks



Reinhardt -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 1:33:00)

Thats correct your advice is usefull (practice) lol

Anyway here is a link that was usefull to me http://www.nylonguitarist.com/tremolo_mastery_part_1.html

Hope it works for you, this guy gives some good advice.

Bye



NormanKliman -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 3:46:32)

My first teacher warned me against muting other strings to make tremolo clearer. He said it's unnatural, and that the best thing to do is to keep practicing (sigh). It'll eventually start to shape up, although it might take a year or so.



michel -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 4:34:36)

thank you guys

the link is helpful: the idea of practicing with pmami etc. sounds interesting.
Norman i've already tried with muting strings, it wasn't the perfect solution for me also - especially when you hear the difference of sound when the melody goes back to E-string where we feel more confortable...



mark indigo -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 6:10:40)

I had the same problem, as I was first taught tremolo on the top string alone, and was told to exaggerate the movements, which created massive problems when i tried to learn something that went onto the 2nd string.

My solution to this was pretty much just practise, slowly, accurately, focusing on the coordination skills etc., with simple chords in the left hand at first. I think the thing that really gave me the breakthrough with it though was to play tremolo on the 3rd string.

I tried exercises that play tremolo on one string (ie. piami all play the same note on the same string), across all 6 strings, but have never played a falseta that even went onto the 3rd string (there probably are some - come to think of it I think one of Riqueni's tangos does a sort of tremolo-ish thing on the bass strings - but it's also a sort of free stroke 3 finger picado, so don't worry about it), so didn't bother to really go beyond the 3rd.

The point is that if you can tremolo on the 3rd string then the 2nd becomes comparatively easier.

Try this simple exercise:

Hold down an E major chord and tremolo on the top string, with the thumb playing strings; 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 3, 4, 5.

In other words, use PIAMI to play the following strings: 61111, 51111, 41111, 31111, 21111, 31111, 41111, 51111, (8 beats altogether).

Then move onto the 2nd string, the thumb playing strings 6, 5, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 5, (8 beats again).

ie. 62222, 52222, 42222, 32222, 42222, 32222, 42222, 52222.

Then move onto the 3rd string, thumb plays 6, 5, 4, 5, 4, 5, 4, 5, (8 beats).

ie. 63333, 53333, 43333, 53333, 43333, 53333, 43333, 53333.

Then back to the 2nd string, the thumb playing strings 6, 5, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 5 again (8 beats).

I also worked on PAMIA as well as the PMIAM mentioned before, again with the above exercise.

When you get bored, try messing around with some other chords and/or chord progressions.

Another thing that's important with tremolo is not to hold the fingers in the palm after they have played. After each finger plays, try to return it to the starting position above the string as the next finger plays, that way you will get a smoother effect and (hopefully!) avoid "galloping" tremolo.

Hope this helps.



Ricardo -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 10:01:22)

All my posts about tremolo, I offer the same solution, and no one else I know seems to back me up on it so maybe I am the only one that shows it like this? But trust me it works.

Practice iamiP..........iamiP...........iamiP..........., any string, or across strings even. Eventually you close that gap (my ........) until you can do it with no gap at all. Here is an exercise using the 3 treble strings, from Nunez:

E---------0000---------------------------------
B------------------------3333------------------
G-------------------------------5--5555--------
D-----------------7--------------------------------
A-0----------------------------------------0...etc
E--------------------------------------------------

I tried to space it there visually, but as you speed up, you don't need to speed up the fingers iami actually, simply close the gap between P and the starting i stroke.

Ricardo



ToddK -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 10:35:06)

quote:

All my posts about tremolo, I offer the same solution, and no one else I know seems to back me up on it so maybe I am the only one that shows it like this? But trust me it works.

Practice iamiP..........iamiP...........iamiP..........., any string, or across strings even. Eventually you close that gap (my ........) until you can do it with no gap at all. Here is an exercise using the 3 treble strings, from Nunez:

E---------0000---------------------------------
B------------------------3333------------------
G-------------------------------5--5555--------
D-----------------7--------------------------------
A-0----------------------------------------0...etc
E--------------------------------------------------

I tried to space it there visually, but as you speed up, you don't need to speed up the fingers iami actually, simply close the gap between P and the starting i stroke.

Ricardo


I'll back you up on that one for sure. Yep, play it like you were to play a traditional Solea intro.

-0000---0-----------------
----------0------------------
----------1------------------
----------2------------------
------------------------------
------------------------------

i also like Sal's advice on tremolo as far as being aggresive with it.

Dont play the treble's like you waving toodloo to the queen. Get a good pop
out of every note. Go slow and be cognisant of every single note, before you
speed up.
Listen to Gerardo's trem or Javier Conde's trem for a model. To me they have
THE epitomy of trem technique.



koella -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 12:08:29)

Yes. I back that up too.
It works. You think everything towards the thumb stroke.



mark indigo -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 14:12:26)

quote:

All my posts about tremolo, I offer the same solution, and no one else I know seems to back me up on it so maybe I am the only one that shows it like this? But trust me it works.


You need "backing up"?!!

I'm surprised - i have such respect for your opinions, ideas and knowledge on here that it didn't occur to me, sorry.

i'll back that up, sure it works, it's a useful thing to do to help smooth out tremelo....

the question was about tremelo on the 2nd string, so i guess the answer would be do iamip on the 2nd string?

Does it negate other appoaches, such as practising on the 3rd string to make the 2nd seem easier, different finger combinations (pamia, pmiam is like doing picado ma and ia, no?), or using a metronome and starting with a different finger on the click, ie. iamip, amipi, mipia, ipiam, piami, etc.?

Personally i don't think so, 'cos if i'm working on a technique i like to spend a lot of time on it so i need a lot of things to play, and i like to approach it from as many angles as possible. I don't think there is one true right way that is gonna work for all people at all times.

Another thing is that i find i take a long time to develop things, so i like to learn or work out little exercises or studies which i can play regularly over long periods of time, like months or even years, and increase speed gradually over those sort of time frames. Over long periods of time like this i reduce things down to the essence of what i really need to work on, which might not be the same for everyone (or anyone!) else.

Here's another one that i have found helpful, set a metronome pretty fast and do your piami (and/or other combination) on whatever string one stroke per click (it helps if you have an electronic one rather than a wind up as you want to start around 200bpm, maybe a bit less, and work up from there).



enurbf03 -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 14:48:44)

Its probably been said here before, and this advice does no good if you've already spent months on tremolo already, just working on the high E string, but, when begining to learn and practice tremolo, its best to start out on the B string, not the high E. Then the move to the high E is no problem.



Mark2 -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 15:51:54)

To develop control, Try playing the bass note on the high e string, then the tremelo on the 2nd string. And also play all the notes on the 2nd string. Those exercises are harder than playing a bass note on the lower strings, then the tremelo on the 2nd, so after getting those working, your tremelo should improve. As far as getting good phrasing, I really like Ricardo's idea.



NormanKliman -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 1 2008 22:12:34)

I came across this video of Sabicas yesterday,



and I thought somebody might find it interesting for a general right-hand approach to tremolo. After the show-stopping rasgueados up the neck, notice how still his right hand seems to be. He was an amazing powerhouse of a guitarist but he always made it look effortless. Not surprisingly, they say that he used to explain, "You can play anything. All you have to do is to practice it an hour a day for a year." I think most of his techniques were reinforced by others. For example, he developed a technique of Ramón Montoya that's kind of similar to tremolo, but involves simultaneous bass/treble, played with p, i and a:

E---0-0-0-0----0-0-0-0----0-0-0-0--
B-----------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------
A------------------------------2----------
E---0------------4--------------------------

It's fingered pa-i-a-i: thumb and ring finger play the first two notes at the same time and i-a-i does the rest of the trebles. May not sound like much (or sound old-fashioned or corny), but it gets pretty exciting when it's played strong and clean.



Ricardo -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 2 2008 13:09:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

I came across this video of Sabicas yesterday,



and I thought somebody might find it interesting for a general right-hand approach to tremolo. After the show-stopping rasgueados up the neck, notice how still his right hand seems to be. He was an amazing powerhouse of a guitarist but he always made it look effortless. Not surprisingly, they say that he used to explain, "You can play anything. All you have to do is to practice it an hour a day for a year." I think most of his techniques were reinforced by others. For example, he developed a technique of Ramón Montoya that's kind of similar to tremolo, but involves simultaneous bass/treble, played with p, i and a:

E---0-0-0-0----0-0-0-0----0-0-0-0--
B-----------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------
A------------------------------2----------
E---0------------4--------------------------

It's fingered pa-i-a-i: thumb and ring finger play the first two notes at the same time and i-a-i does the rest of the trebles. May not sound like much (or sound old-fashioned or corny), but it gets pretty exciting when it's played strong and clean.


Are you sure they don't do it p/m i m i? I can do it much faster that way, but I got it from seeing Paco do it, but I figured Ramon did it the same way, and Faucher transcribes it that way too. Here is a vid of Paco doing it (actually p/m i p/m i), Ramon's falsetas too, look about 3:10:



NormanKliman -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 3 2008 15:14:13)

Okay, that's a similar idea, but the sound is a little different. I was thinking of this falseta from 0:19 onward.

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/sabicas01c.mp3

I got the fingering from a friend of mine who's related to Sabicas. I find it very difficult and still haven't developed it to where I can get that supercharged sound. The a-i combination sounds more even, but is a lot harder and maybe works best in short "spewing" bursts. I assume Ramón Montoya did it the same way, but I don't really know.



Ricardo -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 3 2008 15:23:19)



At 2:49 it looks like mimi to me, but it is not CRYSTAL clear. A lot of times he has the ring finger tucked up if you notice, and does a lot of other similar patters, like alternated with p, all with m and i.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: Need advice for tremolo (B-String) (Oct. 3 2008 15:51:45)

Ha-ha, okay that's just about the same idea! [:)] But it looks like a-i to me: The first joint (phalanx; the one closest to the palm) of his middle finger stops moving around right at that point and I thought I saw the ring finger moving.

In any case, I was talking about the malagueña falseta, although that one bit of the video that you posted is pretty much the same thing. Montoya might do it in fandangos, I can look for it if you're interested. The only other player I've heard or seen do it is the guy I mentioned, Juan Jiménez "El Petaca" (let me know if you know of examples from other players). He's still got a really strong right hand, but he told me that, years ago, he had to put a bit of work into developing that technique. Not too surprisingly, his a-i-i rasgueados are really strong, too. ("Like a sewing machine!" someone once said. [:D])



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