Cejilla..? (Full Version)

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SilverShark -> Cejilla..? (Sep. 29 2008 8:08:56)

I think it's probably time I invest in a nice capo. A lot of the music I play calls for a Cejilla. My question is this; I always thought a cejilla is used so that the guitar can match the key of the singer. But if you're playing solo, what's the point?

And is the cejilla flamenco-specific? In other words, a run of the mill capo from the nearest music store won't cut it?

Thank you



edguerin -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 29 2008 8:48:48)

Matching the singer is only one aspect of cejilla use.

The timbre of certain palos is more typical with the cejilla at appropriate frets.
Fingering can be easier using a cejilla.

quote:

a run of the mill capo from the nearest music store won't cut it?

You want to go in style though, don't you ? [;)]



Ricardo -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 29 2008 9:47:30)

True, you use the capo to transpose, and keep the timbre and "aire" for the singer, yet get a more comfortable pitch. But when you work for singers a lot, it becomes natural to work out falsetas in that position, so you don't feel weird when you capo up and suddenly all your fingerings feel wierd.

For example if you play for singers that do bulerias at 2 or 3 all the time, it is logical to work out your falsetas when practicing, with the capo in the same place. I try to work on some Solea at capo 6-7 because a lot of male singers sing there, and obviously any extended falsetas that you might have when you played open, will be really unfomfortable way up there.

Anyway, for solo pieces it might not matter, but after I compose some stuff open, I try out different capo positions just to see how the timbre of the guitar affects the music in different postions. For example some nice deep bass notes don't have the same effect if you are capoed up higher. When it comes to guitar, unlike the piano, it really matters to the final sound.

Hope that makes some sense.

Ricardo



Ailsa -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 29 2008 23:41:17)

One player I know says he likes to play Solea at 6 or 7 even without a singer because it has "that distinctive Solea sound". It makes a difference to the 'feel' of the piece.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
When it comes to guitar, unlike the piano, it really matters to the final sound.

I'm told that sometimes it does matter on the piano because of the even temperament between the notes? I can't prove that!! - it was piano teacher who told me and he did demonstrate it by playing the same pattern of chords in adjacent keys.



mark indigo -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 30 2008 5:13:56)

quote:

But if you're playing solo, what's the point?


Top response from Ricardo - I always pick up good stuff from your posts (i didn't know that stuff about capo-ing at 6 or 7)!

Here's my answer to "what's the point":

Hold down an F major chord with a full bar at the first position.

Now use your pinky to add a 9th to that chord on the 4th string (just slide your pinky 2 frets up the string, from the 3rd to the 5th fret, note of G).

If it hurts, just stop ok.

Now put your capo on fret 4 or 5 (or try it on fret 6 or 7).

5 fret stretches are much easier with the capo on further up the neck.

I assumed a lot of this stuff gets worked out accompanying singers, using a capo, and it's much more difficult (if not near impossible) to then play without a capo.

Lots of stuff on solo guitar albums is played with capos on, just last night I was playing around with Paco's Tiento Del Mentidero and Siguiriyas De Madrugada (both on 3), and Moraito's Tangos Rompeserones (capo 4). If it works for them....

quote:


And is the cejilla flamenco-specific? In other words, a run of the mill capo from the nearest music store won't cut it?


If you mean do you have to have a carved wooden spanish one with a peg?

no, a lot of players use dunlop capos (i would say most modern players), but make sure it's a straight one for nylon strung spanish guitar, as opposed to a curved one for steel strung american guitar....



Jan Willem -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 30 2008 7:14:34)

quote:

5 fret stretches are much easier with the capo on further up the neck.


That's indeed so, but because someone can't reach the fifth fret without a capo is no reason to use one. Capo's aren't there to make things more easy. If you can't reach the fifth fret and you want to: just practice more :-).
That's a critique I (we flamenco players) usely get from steelstring players etc; capo's are for guitarist who can't play complicated chords. They know off course nothing of the flamenco sound (open strings etc like in taranta, you know what I'm talking about).

If you play to much with capo on high frets, you loose the feeling of playing without a capo. So I would say, don't forget practicing without a cejilla.

The less I play with a capo, the more magic it becomes. I mean; If you play to much on the high frets you get used to it. And that's a shame. Just play some very powerfull old school solea cejilla at 8 [:D]

JW

PS Capo's are something very typical flamenco. Other genres also use it, but with flamenco it is standard equipment just like the guitar itself.



Ricardo -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 30 2008 8:32:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

One player I know says he likes to play Solea at 6 or 7 even without a singer because it has "that distinctive Solea sound". It makes a difference to the 'feel' of the piece.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
When it comes to guitar, unlike the piano, it really matters to the final sound.

I'm told that sometimes it does matter on the piano because of the even temperament between the notes? I can't prove that!! - it was piano teacher who told me and he did demonstrate it by playing the same pattern of chords in adjacent keys.


I think you disagreeing with what I said, but not sure. If you make a back to back comparison of music on piano from one key to another you will notice some difference, because your ear gets used to one key. But the point really is that without the reference, or perfect pitch, you won't notice much timbre difference on piano between say the key of E or the key of F#. Where as if you play say a solea in F# you will notice a difference in timbre vs the normal E key, because of the sound made by open strings vs pressing with the fingers. Hope you see what I mean. Both instruments are "equal tempered" by the way.

Ricardo



Ailsa -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 30 2008 9:39:47)

Thanks Ricardo, yes I do understand your explanation. Of course it makes sense that where the open strings are will make a difference. I wasn't disagreeing tho, just mentioning a different point of view that I had heard.

Oh yes, equal tempered, not even tempered. [:D][:D][:D] My guitar is always even tempered, it's just me sometimes.



mark indigo -> RE: Cejilla..? (Sep. 30 2008 10:01:14)

quote:

because someone can't reach the fifth fret without a capo is no reason to use one.


Actually I think that's a really good reason to use one![:D] Especially for learning stretches. One way to help develop good stretch-ability, capo up high, get fluent with whatever it is you are practising, then put the capo one lower, repeat, one lower, etc. it's a good way to work on things, so again, use the capo. Trying to just play everything without a capo without working up to it can lead to strained hands or fingers.

quote:

Capo's aren't there to make things more easy.


but they do... and why not? Actually I think it's not so much a case of making things more easy, but, as I said, there are things which are near impossible without using one.... if you get criticism for "cheating", tell them to try![:D]

quote:

If you can't reach the fifth fret and you want to: just practice more :-).


see above comment about developing stretches with the capo, and hand strain.

i think you missed the point, that a lot of this stuff gets worked out with a capo, sometimes on 3 or 4 (esp por medio), where the monstruo maestros originally played, maybe paco, moraito, gerardo nunez, should practise more....

and as for:

quote:

capo's are for guitarist who can't play complicated chords.


who are these people?!!! have they ever heard/seen any flamenco guitar?

quote:

That's a critique I (we flamenco players) usely get from steelstring players etc


sheeesh, if they think that about capos, they are so ignorant they shouldn't be paid attention to or listened to.... i have various put downs for these idiots, which i shan't repeat out of context 'cos they sound really bitchy!



Haizum -> RE: Cejilla..? (Oct. 24 2008 9:23:20)

So Ricardo would you say that the capo can be used whatever flamenco piece your playing (solo i mean) IF you felt inclined to use it, or are there specific pieces that should only be played with said capo at 'x' fret?? Hope I made sense (for once)



XXX -> RE: Cejilla..? (Oct. 24 2008 12:29:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

capo's are for guitarist who can't play complicated chords.


who are these people?!!! have they ever heard/seen any flamenco guitar?




Im just guessing but im pretty shure, that when "steelstring players" think of using a capo, they have people in mind, who, let say, only can play 4 chords (C-G7.. whatever), or rather "chord shapes" and use the capo to transpose it to D, instead of playing the D chord. The problem is they dont know how complicated flamenco is, and what seems like a "cheat" in pop guitar, is (mostly) a neccessitiy in flamenco.

Btw it is not possible to say playing with capo would be generally easier. It depends on the falseta. Have in mind that the string tension increases, as does the wideness of the fretboard, not to forget that doing barre beyond the 10th fret is a technique on its own imo.



Ricardo -> RE: Cejilla..? (Oct. 24 2008 22:26:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Haizum

So Ricardo would you say that the capo can be used whatever flamenco piece your playing (solo i mean) IF you felt inclined to use it, (or not)


yes.

Ricardo



Haizum -> RE: Cejilla..? (Nov. 24 2008 15:40:34)

Thanks



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