Learning to play music (Full Version)

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Ailsa -> Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 3:40:27)

I've been having this debate with a couple of people recently. When you are at my stage of learning (just over a year) it is best to:

1. Practise everything with strictly correct technique, to a metronome, and with no dynamics. Just play it really straight, but correctly. No feeling to it.

or

2. Bear in mind that eventually this is going to sound like music (I hope!), so even while I'm practising introduce dynamics, stretching the compas etc. from the beginning.

I guess that either way it's possible to get you to a good end point of playing correct technique with aire. But does anyone have any views?



Bogdan1980 -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 4:19:32)

I don't see how playing with a metronome and strictly adhereing to the rhythm prevents you from playing musically.

You are playing a musical piece after all and that includes emphasizing the melody, which is spelled out in the sheet usually. In other words if the composer indicates a trill or an increase in volume those should be played while adhering to the strict rhythm.

If something is hard to pull off and stay in compas I guess you could simplify. But it's much better to play very slowly but will all the dynamics as much as possible.



Ailsa -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 4:59:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogdan1980

I don't see how playing with a metronome and strictly adhereing to the rhythm prevents you from playing musically.

Hi Bogdan,

Sorry I obviously didn't explain myself properly. I'm thinking of pieces where the compas might be stretched, might have some ebb and flow, for example Seguiriyas and Tientos.

Also in method 1 above, there would be no dynamics. I can't really think of anything musical without dynamics, but if you can let me know!

Thanks



Bogdan1980 -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 5:21:51)

I may have misunderstood. Let's try this again.

First of all what do you mean by dynamics? Volume changes, ornaments, tone changes, right?

If so, then I think you should try to keep as much of it as possbile while learning the piece and adhering to compas. In Siguiriyas you still have a strict compas right? One, two, three, and a four, and a five. So within that compas you are playing a chord change from Bb to A, and you can play that with a little mordent on A string, or you can play that closer to the sound hole for a deeper sound. Is this what you are talking about? If not, I'll just shut up.



KenK -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 5:34:56)

I think it depends on if you've been playing "guitar" for a year or "flamenco" for a year.

If you're just staring out w/ the guitar, I don't think it's a good idea to play mechanically. There are some good things to get out of playing like that, but I'd never advise anyone to do only that.

If you have a lot of guitar technique and are just getting into flamenco (that's were I'm at) then it's a fine idea to work slowly, methodically and even mechanically to aquire new concepts or technique.

Keep in mind though, that you end up playing what you practice. (Including mistakes) So you need to put some kind of expressiveness in there.

Either way, you need to include both methodical and expressive playing in your practice sessions.
Ken



Ron.M -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 5:35:29)

Hi Ailsa,
I can't comment about music in general, but for Flamenco, I try to practise both ways.
For rhythmic toques I think it's very valuable to practise falsetas very slowly and deliberately and strictly in compás with NO stretching or touchy-feely stuff.[:D]
Play like a slowed down record or like you were trying to teach somebody.
Only once you have the falseta really under your belt and understand exactly how it works and fits in can you really indulge in various expressive adornments IMO.
I'd certainly avoid practising too much compás stretching stuff as you can end up playing "mushy" in general.

cheers,

Ron



Ailsa -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 5:59:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
I'd certainly avoid practising too much compás stretching stuff as you can end up playing "mushy" in general.


Thanks guys.

Ron I think that answers my question.

Ken I've never played anything but flamenco guitar. When I first picked one up I tried blowing into it wondered why it didn't make much sound. [:D][:D][:D]

Bogdan, what I mean by dynamics are variations in how loud the notes are. I guess tone might also come into it.

Anyway I think I've got a direction now. Thanks for your time everyone.



Kate -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 6:15:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

When I first picked one up I tried blowing into it wondered why it didn't make much sound. [:D][:D][:D]




[:D][:D][:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 6:51:52)

Ailsa, here is a simple rule I try to explain to students of all levels. You can't DELIBERATELY stretch time, if you don't have time to begin with. Learn everything metronomically first, and stretch it later as your tastes dictate. But metronomically does not mean with no feeling. On the contrary, if you play in rhythm, that means you have the "groove", well, that IS feeling the music. It is a rhythmic feeling.

What happens is that some folks start with the metronome and play very "stiff" at first, which is not good, but it is OK since you are learning how to listen and relate to the steady pulse. You "follow the click" at first. Keep practicing this way and gradually you get comfortable and playing very evenly starts to feel "natural" and then dynamics and swing and other rhythmic details will be no problem, the click seems to be "following YOU". Then finally, you have the choice to turn the metronome off or not and see how you can get away with stretching time but keeping it all in good taste and correct "aire" for the palo, which ever it is.

Ricardo



rpguitar -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 10:33:36)

A good axiom is one I learned in college as a music major. I was challenging what I perceived as the ridiculously "strict" rules of classical Western harmony (i.e. Bach and the like). I thought it was all B.S. and that music should be free and expressive in whatever manner I wanted it to be.

I was told simply: "You have to learn the rules in order to break them."

I am no flamenco expert having been into to it for less than a year. But I think the philosophy applies. If you knowingly break a rule with feeling and intent, it is OK. Otherwise you just sound like you are clueless. It's a matter of perspective.

Similarly, I think you have to first execute before you can express. Learn how to play a piece well so that you are free to explore the nuances of dynamics and other elements that make a performance "musical" in the way we all understand that to mean. If you are hung up on the physical mechanics of playing a piece, the subtle stuff often gets lost.

Just a few thoughts.

Roger



mark indigo -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 11:33:13)

I know this has been well answered to already, but here's some more!


quote:

Practise everything with strictly correct technique


with technique, to me it's not a matter of "correct", but "does it work"

9 times out of 10 (if not more) the so-called "correct" technique is the one that works for the majority of people, ie. it's the most ergonomic, energy-efficient, minimum movement, etc. etc. way of getting the result you want

didn't Manolo Sanlucar say something like "without technique you can't play anything"?


quote:

Practise everything ..... to a metronome


Practically every musician I have ever encountered has recommended practising with a metronome.... and none whatsoever so far in my experience have recommended NOT using one.... a flamenco teacher also told me to learn to tap compás with my foot, with the metronome, while playing. In fact I think he told me I had to "become a human metronome"!


quote:

Practise everything ..... with no dynamics


Ever heard a classical player play their "bit of flamenco" they learned from the yawn martin book? (apologies to any classical players who play flamenco properly, I'm not trying to have a dig at classical players generally, I'm sure flamenco players who play the odd classical piece with flamenco technique are equally tiresome....) That's right, they whisper that thumb falseta based around a 1st position F chord with pulgar TIRANDO, and then they thrash hell out of the F/C/F/E chord progression at full volume, 'cos that's what flamenco's all about, isn't it?

NO! NO! NO!

Anyway, after my little rant, the point is, it's actually quite a skill IMO to get the dynamics EVEN, ie. if you can get picado, arpegio, tremelo, pulgar, alzapua and the various rasgeo's all to sound with a more or less even dynamic relative to each other, THEN you can start to play with it.....


quote:

No feeling to it.


I know you go on to explain that you're talking about Seguiriyas and Tientos, but seriously, I don't think "correct" technique and metronomic compas are going to mitigate against feeling.... they might even give you the ability to express more of it.... I think that a lot of expressiveness and feeling comes not by stretching the compas (although siguiriyas can obviously be quite elastic), but by playing around within it - even in tientos the elastic feel can often come from the swing within the rhythm, not from the beat speeding up or slowing down.


I think it is way more important in flamenco, certainly with anything á compás, to play with strong rhythm before other considerations like tone or dynamics etc., and also that it is much, much easier to relax a strict compas than to tighten up a sloppy compas (aren't you also a dancer? Think dance accompaniment!).

enjoy!
[:D]

mark



Ron.M -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 2 2008 12:07:21)

LOL!
Good and very humourus posts there.
I must admit that over the years on the Internet circle, I have read and heard loads of stuff about basically "avoiding" playing in strict compás.
(A bit like "compás" is a bit of an inconvenience to true artistic expression.)

I tend to think they have the wrong handle on this...
Especially when playing with others, a whole lot of the FUN in Flamenco is playing or dancing or clapping to rigid "machine" like compás and making it all work out!

cheers,

Ron



John O. -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 3 2008 5:59:54)

Both!

Using a metronome for bare technique (1.) is just as important as using it as a percussionist trying things out and testing your limits (2.)

Also if you have a dancer or a singer using dynamics and streching you have to train yourself to fit right into rhythm changes as they come.



RTC -> RE: Learning to play music (Sep. 4 2008 8:03:37)

I am in the same boat. I downloaded a program called transcribe, for example I get Soleares slow it down and the play along with the track. It has been a great tool for me and have been able to increase the speed and it sounds great.

Any feed back on that program?



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