Vals-Bulería Question (Full Version)

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mark indigo -> Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 25 2008 8:24:06)

Hi

It's by Moraíto, on the Encuentro DVD it's just called Vals-Bulería, on Morao Y Oro it's called Mercado Persa I think.

It sounds like Bulería to me, or at least a Bulería composition, or a collection of falsetas that play with the Bulería rhythm, although he doesn't actually play the rhythm with the typical chord sequence (in this key it would be F# to G and back again, or F# to G to A, back to G, and back to F# again).

What I don't get is the "Vals" bit, I don't know if I'm missing something here, but I can't actually hear anything strongly in 3's that I would expect from a Vals/Waltz.

It sounds to me like the rhythm is very strongly Jerez Bulería, the sort of 6 rhythm that you get with Bulería sung with just palmas accompaniment.

What does anyone else think/hear, and can anyone explain the "Vals" bit please?

mark




itoprover -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 25 2008 8:45:22)

Try to play it with 12-beat solo compas loop - it does not quite work this way with accents, I think Ricardo uploaded a 6-beat jerez palmas loop a while ago that works perfectly with this piece. IMO real "vals" part starts at 3:40 (in album version). I also like when it is played slower with capo on 1st like here:




Stu -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 25 2008 12:42:13)

Hey man,

I studied this piece a while ago and asked a similar question.

I seem to remember being told that "Vals" does mean "Waltz".

I play it over a 12 beat compas that was uploaded here by koella i think. it sounds ok. but ill try to find the 6 beat loop ricardo uploaded. any pointers where i may find it?

Stu




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 25 2008 12:50:35)

I have it.

Mail me and I´ll send it to you. eliassonguitars@yahoo.es




XXX -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 26 2008 6:49:02)

playing this over a 12 beat loop will give you polyrythmic accents on the "6 8 10" part, which doesnt fit the mood of the piece. I guess Vals is just a casual term for something thats not a buleria, but feels like 3s or 6s. Vals can also be in 6s. The question would be more, if something is a bulerias when it is only in 3s or 6s, and literally NEVER squares out on 6 8 10, like it DOES some times in this piece here. IMO you should always know, if you are in the 12-5 part of a compas or 6-11, even if you are playing 6s or so, so that you dont do the remates on the first part. In dance they do sometimes 2 compases with sixes, and then do regular remate kind of things during 6 8 10 of the 2nd compas.




Ricardo -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 26 2008 7:25:30)

It is simply a term used to distinguish a composition that is BASED on the rhythm of buleria, but is more "classically" structured, rather than an improvised bag of falsetas mixed with compas strumming, like the normal palo is interpreted on guitar. There is nothing wrong with calling it "composicion por buleria" or "Cancion por buleria", or "fantasia por buleria", or simply "buleria". Some pieces I feel fall into a similar category: "Impetu" by Escudero, "Trafalgar" by Nuñez, etc. The equivalent in cante would be certain cuples, boleros, and other "songs" that are interpreted and accompanied por buleria, but obviously not the standard short improvised letras. Make sense?

Ricardo




Ron.M -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 26 2008 12:16:09)

Yep, makes sense Ricardo.
Thanks again for that info.

Would that apply also to the sort of "pop" Bulerias that you hear on Spanish radio that sound completely Flamenco, using just voice, guitars and palmas, but have a definite "popular, easy-listening" feel about them?

cheers,

Ron




Estevan -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 26 2008 13:46:43)

Yeah Ricardo; the album liner notes (iirc) say something about changing between the feeling of the accent at the end (buleria) and accent at the beginning (vals); but your explanation makes more sense. Thanks.




mark indigo -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 26 2008 14:54:28)

quote:

IMO real "vals" part starts at 3:40 (in album version).

oh yeah, thanks Ilia, i can hear that now....


quote:

I have it.

thanks Anders for the offer - i have the cd version and the encuentro dvd & book - maybe you have another version or tab of the cd version?



quote:

IMO you should always know, if you are in the 12-5 part of a compas or 6-11, even if you are playing 6s or so, so that you dont do the remates on the first part. In dance they do sometimes 2 compases with sixes, and then do regular remate kind of things during 6 8 10 of the 2nd compas.

Hi Deniz, i have a different opinion, and experience of this. I try not to count 'cos it puts me off, as my head is telling me one thing and my ears something else, and you do get "odd" sixes (ie that end on what would be beat 4, wait or golpe on beat 5, come in on 6 and plays as if it were 12) in cante, in dance and in guitar falsetas.

The bulerias on Camaron's cd "Castillo de Arena" are literally littered with odd sixes, listen to the first one, "Samara", every verse of cante ends on beat 4 (golpe or wait on 5, and and the guitar starts again on 6 and plays as if it were 12). try clapping strict 12's through that, you can't, it's just so wrong! sure, parts of it are twelves, but you have to stop counting and just go with the cante and the rhythm. "Como Castillo Arena" has some too

I have accompanied buleria dance (from jerez, of course) with odd sixes, where you get a 6, another 6, and then a "6,8,10" ending which is "really" 12,2,4, and then after that you carry on with a standard compas 12,3,6,8,10, same thing as with the cante

I play a Gerardo Nunez falseta with odd sixes, i couldn't tell you which six is "odd", it just sort of has a section with an odd number of sixes at the end, i think some of Tomatito's Encuentro stuff is same, maybe the second falseta, i haven't checked...

Moraito's bulerias "Buleriando" on "Morao y Oro", same thing, first falseta/intro ends on beat "4" and the 3rd falseta starts on an odd six! (ie he plays 12,2,4 as if it was 6,8,10, and then starts the falseta on 6 as if it were 12)

Personally i found this 6 thing very strange at first as was locked into the 12,3,6,8,10 thing, but then listened to jerez bulerias a palo seco and it starts to make sense, the palmas rhythm in sixes, and after a while it's real easy and i don't count (unless you call "tum-tee-tum-tee-tum or tum-tickee-tum-ta-tum-tum" counting LOL)


quote:

Make sense?

Yeah, thanks Ricardo, that's more or less what i thought what was going on, i just wasn't sure...


great response/s, maybe i should re-post my thread about non-trad keys in standard tuning...!




XXX -> RE: Vals-Bulería Question (Aug. 28 2008 1:16:53)

Ricardo, thanks for the info, im sure youre right. But really, never would have thought that! I was mistakenly sure that Vals refers to a rythm!

Mark, ah i see your examples. I dont really count either when playing, i just keep in mind where i am in the compas at the moment (sorry that doesnt make sense lol). I just have never experienced that they "switch" the compas from 6 8 10 to 12 2 4, hence i thought it was kind of an unwritten rule to square out in the end with 6 8 10, after having a period of 6s. Since i tap my foot on 12 2 4 and therefore also on 6 8 10 it makes me little problems to change between these counts. I never got used into the 12 3... kind of tapping in buleria.


quote:

maybe i should re-post my thread about non-trad keys in standard tuning...!


definitely, it had way too few responses imo!




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