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Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 20 2008 5:00:12)

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Adam -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 6:23:16)

What tonality is it in at the end (incl. when they're all dancing)? It has a much different feel from most bulerias.........



XXX -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 6:24:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

It is very clear the accompanist knows what he is doing and that he is not at all reflecting the cante, could an "outsider" play like that and not get chewed up.



Just for my understanding: is it in the whole song or just a small part? And what does not reflecting cante mean, wrong chords?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 20 2008 8:16:02)

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Mark2 -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 8:28:42)

First, thanks for the vid-I really enjoyed it. As to your question, I think the answer is if you can get the gig, you aren't going to lose it for missing a chord change.

As to outsiders getting the gig in the first place, that's another story. There are politics in every human endeavor, including getting any kind of gig.

I think guys who are serious about playing flamenco have to make a decision at some point about how far to take it, and how to do it. Several guitarists such as David Serva, Gary Hayes, Ian Davies, and others have shown how far it's possible to go, but for most, that price is too high.



Ricardo -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 9:30:35)

quote:

The tonal shifts are clear and most people accompany C, Bb, A but the guitarist here plays A. This is the modality that you were talking about.


Hmmm. It looked like all was normal to me, I mean he changed all the chords like normal, you typical tonal stuff mixed with phrygian. Ok he was in por Arriba so I am thinking G, F, E. In the middle he does the jerez bulerias and it goes to E major, and he plays G# like minera I thought that was different.

At the very very end estribillo he does G-F-E, then a llamada, but the "singer" who jumped in cause the main singer was dancing, REPEATED it and since the guitar was allready ending, he just rolled that puppy on out. I think since it was the very ending, it is not a big deal, a rhtyhmic thing not a specific harmonic treatment, and personally I dont' think of that as the choice example of modaliy, ie use of drone. Technically yeah, he is not giving harmonies, he is just on the tonic chord, but we already hear it a moment before with the harmony so it is in our heads.

For modality a clear example like I said Pele with v. amigo, the siguiriyas, or lately I heard Jose Merce do Martinete with a lovely synth drone. That is what I mean by purely modal.

About "outsider". You really need to define specifically "outsider", and who are the so called "insiders" he is playing with. OK for clearity and time, lets say YOU Romerito are the outsider, and this group in the vid are the "insiders". If YOU played like that guy, meaning, with Soniquete, good compas I mean, you could get away with MUCH more than that one chord ending, in terms of what some may think of as "wrong" tonos. But if you get all the right chords, but don't have a good rhythm, then no you wont "get away" with anything.

But if you not only keep good compas, but also get all the "right" tonos, then, you may get questioned 'where are you from in jerez" or if they know already you are not spanish "where did you learn in Spain? Who is your maestro?" etc etc, and then you can be all proud of yourself for having fooled the "insiders".

Ok, my opinion is all conjecture of course without specifics, but hopefully you get me.

Ricardo



Mark2 -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 9:47:37)

The chord he hit at 1:50 kind of bugs me-He didn't have to leave the key there, personal choice, no big deal, but that bugged me more than his hanging on the tonic at the end. Maybe by then he was tired of changing chords[:)]



Ricardo -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 9:52:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

The chord he hit at 1:50 kind of bugs me-He didn't have to leave the key there, personal choice, no big deal, but that bugged me more than his hanging on the tonic at the end. Maybe by then he was tired of changing chords[:)]


Yeah that was the "minera" G# I talked about above. Not typical, but it works with the melody. Just that he doesn't resolve it you know? He should have hit A next instead of B7, that would have been nicer. But again, the singer did not seem to care, so really, WHO cares??[:D][:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 20 2008 10:04:52)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 20 2008 10:09:25)

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gato -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 11:29:52)

I would say that players from different regions or with cultural differences play thier instruments with differences out of reflex, so that though it may work or not work it all depends on their openness to perform together, as far as you put it to get away with something or allow something. And that all depends on the looseness for such a performance to happen and the allowances made, though that is really a kind of openness that superceedes the differences. The insider/outsider thing is really fascinating to me and I am not offended. And, if I were in Spain I'm sure that I would be thinking about that a lot, and playing a lot. Good question........
Gary



eccullen -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 15:02:26)

hmmm:

the insider vs outsider thing is a bit like the artificial intelligence issue: would someone who know how to follow the rules sufficiently to fool a blinded insider actually then be an insider?
Would a clumsy insider be an outsider?
Is it place of origin and the implicit belief that origin results in understanding, or is is it the ability to use the rules (musical/social/linguistic) that demonstrates understanding?

A bit like the experience we have all had where we are surprised to learn that someone who speaks and acts so naturally is really from elsewhere.

Also a bit like the classical vs flamenco threads in the past- could someone be both?

insider/outsider discriminations leads so easily to defense, then exclusion, ostracism, isolation, etc etc, the stuff that opened ironically to the specific shape of the suffering of gypsies then to the deep anguish in the music which we all feel as so strongly universal! loneliness loss.
...different from the open sharing accepting embracing feel that makes this forum so nice.

Not having ( yet) been to Spain I suspect or wonder that there aren't insider/outsider issues between different areas; like maybe, no matter how inside you feel, you can never quite be insider enough.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Tonality vs. Modality Attn: Ricardo (Feb. 20 2008 15:50:22)

When I was in high school I met with two Spanish AFS students informally. One was spending a year in my town; the other was living in a nearby community. They started to argue in Spanish and afterward one explained that the other had claimed that all of the culture and art of Spain came from the south and criticized the other person for being from northern Spain. These two had just been introduced to each other when the one from southern Spain started the argument. I believe arguments like this are common…



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