Sevillanas question (general) (Full Version)

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Simon -> Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 4 2008 18:37:08)

I have a question on Sevillanas, which yesterday I posted previously in error on the recording discussion group. I have studied a sevillanas performed by Paco Pena on `Fabulous Flamenco' and I seem to be hearing an extra two beats in the opening salida, which by my calculations (experience really) would cause dancers to mutiny. Am I hearing this incorrectly or is Paco Pena taking license in the absence of a self-determining dance troup?

Thanks cathulu for previous comment on similar Gypsy Kings intro issue.

And thanks to the generosity of the forum. I have just discovered it and its a terrific resource.



Ron.M -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 4 2008 20:56:33)

Hi Simon,
I did notice your original post, but can't lay my hands on this recording.

The best way of getting a response to your question is to upload a short sample of the section which you are finding puzzling in the Audio/Video uploads Forum.

That way folk can just simply click on it and immediately know what you are referring to, rather than have to dig through their record collection.

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 5 2008 2:08:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon

I have a question on Sevillanas, which yesterday I posted previously in error on the recording discussion group. I have studied a sevillanas performed by Paco Pena on `Fabulous Flamenco' and I seem to be hearing an extra two beats in the opening salida, which by my calculations (experience really) would cause dancers to mutiny. Am I hearing this incorrectly or is Paco Pena taking license in the absence of a self-determining dance troup?

Thanks cathulu for previous comment on similar Gypsy Kings intro issue.

And thanks to the generosity of the forum. I have just discovered it and its a terrific resource.

Yeah you are absolutely right, the salida is off by an extra 2. But it would not necessarily mess up the dancers since they don't start until after he gives that accent at the end of it, and the phrase in context of the coplas is fine. But for sure he messed up the beginning, or whom ever he copied it from.

Ricardo

EDIT about Gypsy Kings. Rumba is not 4 beat, even though it seems that way at times. It is a 2 beat, and the strumming reveals this. So sometimes an extra measure of a chord held, or one LESS will happen, so you count 3 or 6 "beats" with the foot tap. That is sometimes thought of as a "half compas" but really just shows you the fundamental unit of rhythm is smaller than some might think. Bulerias does EXACTLY The same thing, and you will even find the same with Solea at times. Half compases.



cathulu -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 5 2008 7:49:18)

I did not know that! Thanks.

I count rumba as "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and" while my foot taps on the "1" and "3" beat.

Usually I play the "1 and 2 and" with thumb and im downstroke, silent on the "3", then "and 4 and" with the i down up down. I think this is pretty much standard for everyone.

So at my speed of strumming all I here is 4/4, although when I play along with rumba solo compas I must admit the two extra beats found in "Inspiration" fit in alright. But I think there is a slight shift in accents because of it with the rumba solo compas I use. However, I am not strumming with "Inspiration" but trying to play the melody line - not well either I might add, I can't handle the fast picado.

Honestly I would have never realized it is 2/2. But you say count 3 or 6 beats. Did you mean to say count 2 or 6 beats, with 4 being the norm? How would you extend the standard strum out an additional 2 beats?



Ron.M -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 5 2008 8:11:09)

There is a GREAT "half compás" falseta off Paco's "La Guitarra Fabulosa" album in the Bulerías.

Do you know the one I mean? (Goes down to F)
You can convert it into a full compas one, but then it loses all the impact IMO.

Estela once said that she couldn't see the reason why a guitarist should ever play a "half compás falseta...and that they usually "square it off".

While I very much value her knowledge and experience and have great respect for her, I think that it's a bit off to say that a singer is allowed to perform "half compáses" for artistic expression, but not guitarists...?

Por qué?

cheers,

Ron



mark indigo -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 5 2008 9:10:35)

quote:

Estela once said that she couldn't see the reason why a guitarist should ever play a "half compás falseta...and that they usually "square it off".


i guess there's no "reason" why a guitarist should play a "half compas falseta" (i've always called this playing "sixes", but equally there's no reason why a guitarist shouldn't, is there? When playing sixes, it doesn't matter about twelves at all, and no attention should be paid as to whether it adds up to a total divisible by twelve!

I think Gerardo does this a lot, I couldn't tell you which falseta from which album, but try any bulerias! I did at least one falseta in a class with him that had an "odd six" ending. I think Moraito does this a lot too, so maybe it is a Jerez thing.

Having said that, I would say it's definately a Jerez thing, but whether it's done anywhere else I couldn't say. Palmas in unaccompanied (Jerez) Bulerias is just a six thing too.

Oh, and I think (at least) one of the falsetas on the Tomatito Encuentro video/DVD has an odd number of sixes too.



AndrewE -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 5 2008 10:16:40)

Hi Simon,

I haven't heard the recording you posted but I think I know the one your talking about as i learned it several years ago and never thought twice about it until I got pulled up in a dance class. If you play in a dance class were there a lot of beginners what you'll find is that they will be count-in the point were they start and not listening to the melody phrasing which gives a pretty obvious starting point.

I think a good dancers would not have a problem with this sevillana even if they had never heard it before.

In the end I had to tell the class each time that this sevillana start on 12 not 10 like they normally counted. They just need to use there ears and stop counting.

I find and fell that without a singer for sevillanas, the dance and guitar are usually very independent/disconnected parts (each part doing there own fixed thing).

Andrew



Ricardo -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 3:30:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

I did not know that! Thanks.

I count rumba as "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and" while my foot taps on the "1" and "3" beat.

Usually I play the "1 and 2 and" with thumb and im downstroke, silent on the "3", then "and 4 and" with the i down up down. I think this is pretty much standard for everyone.

So at my speed of strumming all I here is 4/4, although when I play along with rumba solo compas I must admit the two extra beats found in "Inspiration" fit in alright. But I think there is a slight shift in accents because of it with the rumba solo compas I use. However, I am not strumming with "Inspiration" but trying to play the melody line - not well either I might add, I can't handle the fast picado.

Honestly I would have never realized it is 2/2. But you say count 3 or 6 beats. Did you mean to say count 2 or 6 beats, with 4 being the norm? How would you extend the standard strum out an additional 2 beats?


Sorry I made a typo earlier...foro is so darn buggy lately I type fast and dont' check...I meant you find 2 beats and 6 beats, ie multiples of 2. You count all the subdivision 1&2&3&4. YOu tape foot on 1, 3. For me that is a TWO beat rhythm. I count different because the foot is only the numbers, 1e&ah,2e&ah, that is the strum. So in that case, the way YOU count there is not an "extra 2 beats" but an extra two foot taps, or an EXTRA MEASURE. So you add a half compas feel, just one full 4 count stum on E minor then start the falseta (Inspiration), and that happens often.

Ron, about Estela's comment, I agree, she was not making sense. That was a long time ago, maybe she did not get what we were really saying. You can't argue with mathematical proof![8|]

for AndrewE, I disagree. A good dancer knows the rhythm feel, and does not count. Based on Paco Pena's strumming at the intro, the dancers have the internal phrase in their head. When that falseta comes in, the salida that is extra 2 long, the sense of where the beat is shifted. The dancers will be surprised by how the guitar ends it and stutter step, wanting to come in 2 beats sooner. Believe me, I know how those things go. But after that one stutter, it will all be fine. My advice to students, is to AVOID those weird sevillanas if possible. Don't copy this one of Paco, or cut those first 2 beats out so it works. No dirty looks is better than saying "that is how it goes, want a bet?".

Ricardo



ddk -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 6:29:10)

This has been bothering me for some time. I have always been told that the one unbreakable golden rule is the compas. But clearly some of the greats will add in a 6-beat count during bulerias (for example) from time to time[:@]!?!

Is it permissible if you are not playing for a dancer?

Dean



AndrewE -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 9:15:57)

Ricardo,

Spot on, I stand corrected.

And this "No dirty looks is better than saying "that is how it goes, want a bet?". " -Wow, how true's that - been there done that -damm!

I'm taking your advice and droping the P.P version. I trying to get away from those (dare I say cheesey hanky waving) sevillanas and play some "modern" style sevillanas. I'm looking at the sevillanas form Moraito's Encuentro video,
do you think they are appropriate for dance or are they more suited to solo work - I don't want anymore dirty looks!

Andrew



cathulu -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 10:25:06)

Thanks very much Ricardo.

Re additional beats, I think it adds an element of surprise to the listener and is a good thing - keeps them engaged in the music.



Adam -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 12:33:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

There is a GREAT "half compás" falseta off Paco's "La Guitarra Fabulosa" album in the Bulerías.

Do you know the one I mean? (Goes down to F)
You can convert it into a full compas one, but then it loses all the impact IMO.

Estela once said that she couldn't see the reason why a guitarist should ever play a "half compás falseta...and that they usually "square it off".

While I very much value her knowledge and experience and have great respect for her, I think that it's a bit off to say that a singer is allowed to perform "half compáses" for artistic expression, but not guitarists...?

Por qué?

cheers,

Ron


Hey Ron, audio sample please? :)



HemeolaMan -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 6 2008 12:52:13)

ddk, the golden rule is you are dancer's/singer's accompanyment. make them look good. staying in compas is the best way to do that. however if you and the singer/dancer are both experienced enough, compas can be flexible. not broken,

much like the missing beats of the bar of an anacrusis, they are accounted for in the end.



ddk -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 7 2008 8:45:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

ddk, the golden rule is you are dancer's/singer's accompanyment. make them look good.



Thanks H.M.. That makes sense to me...[:)]

I guess if you are widely respected, it is acceptable to be felxible sometimes. Otherwise, better to stay true to compas, especially when accompanying.[X(]

Dean



Ricardo -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 7 2008 14:25:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ddk

This has been bothering me for some time. I have always been told that the one unbreakable golden rule is the compas. But clearly some of the greats will add in a 6-beat count during bulerias (for example) from time to time[:@]!?!

Is it permissible if you are not playing for a dancer?

Dean


Understanding what compas means, the limits and options, is the thing. Extra 6 beats is NOT a broken rule of compas. The idea of "half compas" comes from people counting to 12 for example. Most people born into flamenco dont count so, it is all perfectly normal. Even PDL has a 9 beat falseta in "La Tumbona" at about 1:33. I heard the same from Nino Miguel and maybe Sabicas too. Perhaps they are mistakes, but every once in a while you find these strange things. Point being counting is a concern for students, but not the maestros. So if you are a student, it is good to be as square and regular as you can until it becomes natural. But the math is not like the word of god or something, it all makes sense with more experience.

About odd 6 being a "jerez" thing. Well, many say bulerias orginates in Jerez. It could be true, but even bulerias from other regions, and old or modern, 6's are simple part of how the fundamental rhythm feels. No matter where the guitarist or singer is from, you will find the occasional odd 6 in bulerias. And about dancers wanting in 12, on the contrary, there are times the dancer forces the guitar to cut in 6. At any time during a buleria, extra 6 can be given by guitar, singer, or dancer. In the case of the singer doing it, both a guitar or dancer could square it off by doing an extra 6. And vice versa, the guitar can force a singer to wait or cross by doing an odd 6. And all this is perfectly normal.

Ricardo



Simon -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 7 2008 23:37:19)

I very much appreciate the comments on my earlier question. Flat out at work has made it hard to respond until now.

I've been both relieved and illuminated by the replies in many ways. My misfortune was to learn the Paco Pena piece as my first sevillanas, so that hanky waving has been the last of my problems. (I did see a brief spot of hanky waving on an Australian broadcast on the Romero family a few nights back and, yes, the idea of cheeze came to mind!) Once I found more examples I smelt a rat, and so the question arose.

I heard a rendition of sevillanas melodies at the Spanish festival in Liverpool St, Sydney last year, played as a solo on bagpipes of some description and without percussion or really any strong rhythmic pulse. Remebering the experience brings to mind the relationship between melody and compas which is generally not considered but must play a role. As another discussion of siguryas on the Foro pages have noted, in the case of that compas, the chromatic shift is really important to how that compas seems to work, perhaps not always but a lot of the time. I was surprised how much I agreed with the author (can't name as I am still learning navigation through this rich field of talK) who said the chromatic shift made him think of the siguriyas compas as 7 plus 5, which was how I was counting it when hearing my first live performance of it listening to arrebato in the `Cross' last year.

This issue impinges in turn on the role of the cantor in the compas. Another writer has noted how rarely voice seems to be discussed. Perhaps this is because the Foro F is an English language group, for which the literary content (the letras?) is unobserved. I am working on my Spanish to try and address this but, so much to learn....

On the uploading suggestions, I'll try to manage this when i get the tech down when I find a similar issue that needs illustrating.

The discussion over whether to omit, what constitutes a mistake, who is allowed to break rules and when has been intriguing and can apply to many areas of debate -- over taste, what is art, invention and error. Duchamp said art is the `coefficient of intention over result' - a facitious remark perhaps but with some truth. Bourdieu's writing on the `cultural arbitrary' also has some bearing on rule making in art. To my mind, the collectivised rigour of the flamenco tradition is linked to its political content: a symbol of the iron will of the alienated minority, from which the power to resist domination (by the Spanish state) came. So the rigour of the form is for me linked to its expressive content.

Contemporary flamenco is popularised in somewhat similar circumstances ie. the redefinition of Spanish identity in the face of the homogenising forces of the Euro. There's a lot of regionalism happening in Europe it seems, to judge from the last Eurovision song contest. But the stakes are quite different, and more abstract, than the life or death choices of the early flamenco's, so rules will take a very different path for the new material. Does the forum have ideas about the modern forms (in which I am often lost to hear the compas)?

I've found all contributions fruitful,thank all their authors for their generous insights, and look forward to reading more.



ddk -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 8 2008 8:10:46)

Thank you Ricardo for your input. I guess as a beginning guitar student, it is better for me to be clearly in compas. It sounds like the situation (and the level of the participants) dictates what is appropriate. It must be nice to be exposed to Flamenco as a child...

Dean



Ron.M -> RE: Sevillanas question (general) (Feb. 8 2008 8:24:15)

Simon,
Pepe Martinez is an old time specialista in solo Sevillanas.
He IS a Sevillano himself, born and bred!
I don't have any of his albums, but I've seen him on TV and I've got to admit he's absolutely terrific at Sevillanas!

cheers,

Ron



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