Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Full Version)

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Jim Opfer -> Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 12 2004 9:57:49)

Back from a family holiday in Torremolinos, just a laying around the pool thing, although the weather was great one day and major storms the next.

I got a chance to call in to see Pedro Maldonado, I'm not in the market for a new guitar but I used to have a Maldonado 1a and I wanted to say hello.

Pedro let me try a new top range cypress flamenco which he pointed out had been made with a cedar top. I tried it and I'd have to say that it was very very good with bright brittle sound and lots of energy and punch available behind each note.

Pedro told me that whilst most players tend to prefer spruce (and here's the thing that made me wonder) Vicente Amigo however owns a Maldonado and Pedro said the VA prefered ceder over spruce and used cedar top guitars all the time, so I guess that implies that his Reyes has cedar?

I owned a nice Bernal with ceder (now owned by Ron) and I remember that the other Bernals I saw when I bought it, also had ceder tops and then I remembered being told that most Ramirez flamencos from the 60's had cedar tops and that was again a matter of preference.

Anyone shed any light on this or have a view?

Cheers
Jim.



Billyboy -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 12 2004 16:28:16)

I will always remember P Maldanado's Jnr workshop, I was having a new bridge put on and it came over the radio Cameron just died, It was unbeleivably hot in the small workshop just up the hill, I used to own a Ceder top Maldanado, which to my ears has a slightly more woody, mellow and forgiving tone, but not as cutting as a Cypres.
Dave



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 13 2004 12:40:07)

I have made a couple of flamencos with cedar tops, in all honesty it isn't my favorite combo. Both of them were early guitars for me so maybe I shouldn't make the comparison. I do think it would be worth trying again but I am really fond of the brillance of a spruce top blanca so I would be concerned about losing some of that. Not to get into generalizations about the differences between various tone woods as I any observations I have only deal with how they affect one of my guitars. Still, all my favorite blancas, mine or other makers, have all been spruce topped.

The cedar topped Rameriz blancas (have one in the shop right now for repair and will be getting another next week, that I will be selling) that I have seen have been very nice sounding. I don't think that they are really bright, biting flamencos though but that's just my impression. The second one I haven't seen in 8 or 9 years. If it's in the same condition as it was last time I saw it then it will be interesting to see if the memory of my impression is accurate.



Jim Opfer -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 13 2004 14:38:41)

Thanks Aaron, I'd be interested to hear what you think when you get the second Ramirez.
Cheers
Jim.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 13 2004 14:40:38)

How long are flamenco guitars supposed to last?



Patrick -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 13 2004 16:10:21)

Aaron,

None of this taking guitars in for repair stuff, at least for another six months! You have a negra and a blanca to finish! LOL

Have you firmed up your plans for your trip to the West coast yet. I need to see if the beach house is available.

Pat



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 13 2004 19:45:13)

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aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 14 2004 0:33:33)

Patrick,
Yeah tell me about it, I am buried in three major restorations right now, a Valasquez that was in pieces, a Marcelino Lopez blanca that is a nightmare and I am restoring one of my own guitars and have the back off as we speak. Yikes. I am working on rosettes for the new ones though which means a lot of down time watching the glue dry. So I am trying to be economical with my time. Julia and I are still working on our West Coast trip, we figure in August we will be out there. We can work around you if there are dates you have the place available for though.:)

Miguel I will take a crack at your question tomorrow. I'm getting called for dinner.



Patrick -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 14 2004 6:07:43)

Aaron,

I 'll let you know about the schedule.

Pat



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 14 2004 12:43:51)

Patrick,
Muchos Gracias!

Miguel,
Like most things in guitar it really depends on a number of factors that make it pretty much a case by case basis. First of all the contruction, if the maker engineered in such a way that the torque of the strings is not excessive (strings low to the top), the top is braced sufficiently so the tension of the strings don't cause it to collapse, (this is a tricky bit of work as there is an inherent contridiction here, you need the top to be able to vibrate effciently), there is the quality of the materials as well. Good wood is free of internal tension that causes cracks that don't close up and well seasoned wood is more stable. The quality of the luthiers work is imperitive, did they build the guitar in a humidity controled enviroment, take care with their glue joints etc..

For example a lot of people are switching back to hide glue for the reason that you can reverse it and fix it. The Valasquez that came to me in pieces, the back was hide glued on and what was still glued came apart with nothing more than a pallete knife. THe braces were unglued at the ends and all I did was run a little more glue under there (after a cleaning) and clamp. Can't do that with any other type of glue. Makes restoration not only easier but in some cases possible where otherwise they wouldn't be.

How well the guitar has been taken care of probably has more to do with the longevity than anything. Guitars are fragile and when they were cheaper there wasn't the finacial rational to necceassarily take good care of them. Many guitars that might have otherwise been around for quite some time died from neglect (or poor repairs) more than anything else.

Although just like a 98 year old 3 pack a day smoker who can still party like a rock star, there are exceptions. The '51 Barbero that Sabicas recorded Flamenco Puro with is a great example. This 53 year old guitar is in better shape than most of us. The owner of that guitar told me that he bought the guitar without a case, took it home on the bus in a paper bag, used it as his beach guitar all through college and his younger days and the instrument spent probably close to 20 years strung with 4 strings in a closet without being humidified or anything. Not for nothing but this guy has probably the best Conde I have ever seen, from the early 70's and that was his guitar. As the Barbero had a crack, he just assumed it was broke. Dennis Koster convinced him otherwise and Richard Brune restored the guitar, although I don't think it needed all that much work. Actually being in a closet probably is what saved it. I see a number of older guitars with the most sloppy neglegent repair work that basically screwed the guitar up so much that what might have been an easy repair is now major surgery.

I also had in the shop some years ago a 1870's Soto y Soleras that is it's owners working guitar. THe thing is amazing and in great shape with a sound that is anything but tired. The guitar is very well made (Soto y Soleras were contempories of Torres and in fact sold instruments for him.) and has been well taken care of with a noticable absence of crappy repairs.

If you buy smart and take good care of your guitar and get a competent luthier to work on it as the need arises, you will have that guitar for as long as you wish. It is true that the violin is better engineered for the long haul but guitars should be able to outlive it's original owners and then some.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 14 2004 15:25:09)

Wow, I didn't know that. I guess my Vicente Carillo is going to last longer than I thought, maybe I won't be needing your services for awhile after all, Aaron! Just kidding, thanks for the information :)



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 14 2004 15:31:51)

One thing I don´t understand is the thing about hide glue. I´ve done some violin reparations, and the deck was removed without difficulty, but I´ve also taking of two guitar backs without major problems. One was glued with Titebond and the other with PVA. It´s not as easy as with the hide glue. One has to work a bit more, and ´listen´a bit more to the glue. It will tell if the palette should be warmer.

The thing about longivity of a guitar is all like Aaron said. Quality of construction, wood, builder, and especially how it´s been taking care of. No golden rules here.

I´ve got a M. A. Bellido cedar/cypress. It´s very nice sounding, with beautifull tonal quality, very nice brilliant trebles, and can be played quite hard without breaking the tone. But it does lack a bit of attack.



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 15 2004 13:06:41)

Hey Anders,
Hide glue is really the only glue where the joint is either glued or not. My old teacher used to call PVA and to a lesser extent titebond "bubblegum glue". That is to say they aren't really holding but they also aren't letting go. If you have ever seen a creaped joint you will know what I mean. I remember when I was an apprentice that Alan took the top off a Martin that the airlines had their way with. The shoulder brace had moved down towards the soundhole while still being glued to the top. The tension of the strings did that, not the airlines. This is way bad. If that brace had been glued with hide glue, that joint would not have moved, if there was an impact of sufficient force to cause the joint to fail, the brace would have popped off, most likely that would be the least of your worries in that situation though.

In reversing a hide glue joint that isn't dessicated you need more than just heat alone, you need either water and heat, which is not always advisable or you need to run a little alcohol into the joint which will reverse the glue nicely. Titebond and PVA don't join the way hideglue does which is one reason why you had better luck taking off that back. Those glues form a bond where the glue is basically a mechanical gasket between the two pieces of wood. We're talking on the molecular level here if it's a good joint. Hide glue penetrates the wood and keys them together. So you can see why it is harder to pry apart. I believe it also makes for a better acoustical response in the guitar as you don't have this gasket as it were between your braces. We're talking small differences here but every little bit helps, believe me.

In restorations like I mentioned a hide glue joint is the only one where at any given point down the road, if the joint fails, you can run some new glue in there and the joint will be good as new. (I should mention here that I think the braces unglued from the back because the back, being flat sawn Brazilian rosewood, moved around quite a bit. The braces popped which I am sure kept the back from cracking all over the place) Any other glue you have to get all the old glue out of there and prepare a fresh surface. Not always possible in the case of a partially unglued brace. This is a big part of making your instruments fixable and thereby increasing the potential life span of the guitar. Making life easy for future repair people is always a good idea.

One common misconception is that hide glue isn't as strong. It does depend on how you make it but in reality it is incredibly strong. Textured glass like they used in old office buildings is made with hide glue. They take an ordinary piece of glass, coat it with glue and then peel the glue off which takes a lot of glass with it. Very strong indeed.

I used titebond for many years and for a number of those years I resisted going to hide glue because it seemed to difficult to use. That was silly, it is easier to use than titebond. You do have to worry abou the glue gelling on you but if it does you heat it up a little and your off and running., When gluing on a top or back I run a little glue in there on a knife, clamp and move to the next section. It is wonderfully easy and stress free. You will not regret making the switch, I promise.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 15 2004 15:12:37)

One thing, I know I beat on my guitar a lot, golpes galore, rumba strums. My old guitar, from Paracho, looks like it has been through a war. Now obviously my playing style is a lot harsher than a classical guitarist's. Yet you still believe a guitar can last a long time, 20, 30, 40 years, being played aggressively?



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 15 2004 21:04:29)

Aaron,

That last part, the back gluing is very interesting. I know hide glue, and is worried about gluing a back with this big glue joint and using hide glue that sets so fast.

So what you do, is that you put the back on with tape?, after having adjusted the neck angle. (this is important) and then you slow and easy lift a part of the back and let some hide glue into the joint? and then move on to another part, until you´ve covered it all?

This is very interesting, because the thing about gluing the back with titebond, using rope or rubberband is very streesing, and one easily puts to much pressure on the rope/band, with the possibility of deforming the body (imploding SB).

Do you know that the Valencia factorys have started using CA for a lot of things. Incl. gluing the braces. It is interesting, CA is nasty stuff, but it dries up very crystal like, which should result in good tonal properties, and it (like hide glue) enters more or less everywhere. But I must admit that I hate the smell of it, and only use it for my thumbnail and for filling up small imperfections after sealing a guitar.

PS: I will mail you about olive oil. I havent forgot it.



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 3:43:02)

Miguel,
I think that kind of playing is fine as long as you aren't compromising the structural integrity of the top with excessive force. Translation, beating the every loving god fearing crap out of it. Strong playing can really open up a guitar acoustically and that can't be bad. The better the playing and the better the guitar the better the results, but I wouldn't worry about that killing a guitar.


Anders,
I think that the use of CA for most applications is not a good one. I have used it to fill pores, which is very smelly but can give very good results. It is a chemical bond and some woods it won't glue at all (spanish cedar and mahogany for example), it has to do with the PH of the wood. It isn't reversable and I don't think it's as strong but that's just my opinion.

When I glue on a back I use these quick grip clamp that close by racheting. I use a solera and a cork lined 1/4 inch plywood rim on the back. I spread glue on the slipper foot and clamp that down. Then with a pallete knife I run some glue from the foot to the shoulder brace and put on the clamps. Then the other side and on down to the end block. It is very easy and gives the best glue joint possible. As your pallete knife should be very thin, you don't have to worry about not being able to get it in there between the sides and the back.

Thanks for the help with the oil, I appreciate it!



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 7:37:38)

Well, Aaron, I´m close on gettin there, and sorry to everyone else who might think that this is way out.

So the plywood rim cover the whole back/side glue joint?, and you slowly work your way from heel to endblock. I suppose wooden Klemsia clamps will do here as well

How long time does the joint need to be clamped before you can remove the clamps?

Do you adjust the neck angle in thge solera?

Lots of question, I know, but I really apreciate, and learn a lot. And I´m quite sure that my next will be glued this way. I like the smell of hot hide glue. In general I like the smell of traditional instrument making. Violin varnishes really turn me on, so does Tru - oil. I used to work with old wooden boats, so everything linseed oil etc. is nice (+ fresh air) These days I´ve been able to work with the windows open, 55% humidity and views of the mountains, and the old folks from the village talking about the weather and other small (big) things. This can be seen in the quality of my work.

Anders



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 12:27:04)

Anders,
Yeah hopefully the others aren't getting ready to give us the boot for talking shop too much.:)

THe neck angle is set in the solera and is where I want it to be when I am shaping the sides to receive the back. You could use cam clamps (Klemsias) but they do tend to pull so you may want to dry run it for a bit to make sure you don't have problems. In a glue joint like that I try to leave it clamped over night. You really can get away with two hours in clamps for hide glue but better safe than sorry. I think a lot of people don't give their glue joints proper time to fully harden (24 hours is what it takes for most glues) before subjecting them to stress like when you are working on the guitar. I usually wait 48 hours before stringing up a guitar after gluing on the bridge. Not always but I try to when I can.

Sounds like you have a real nice place to build guitars. My workshop is on the third floor of an old office building (about 130 year old) with huge floor to ceiling arched windows that let in an unbelievable amount of light, which is nice. The town common is across the street and this time of year all the young ladies are shedding their heavy winter coats and sweaters for much more aesthetically pleasing garb making the world seem all that much brighter. As I am situated over the busiest intersection in the free world outside of Time Sq. I also get my fill of ambulences, police cars and fire trucks but you take the bad with the good.



Patrick -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 18:30:00)

quote:

Yeah hopefully the others aren't getting ready to give us the boot for talking shop too much.:)


No way guys. I'm enjoying it. Keep at it.

Pat



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 21:56:18)

Thanks Patrick, I enjoy as well.

Aaron, seems like our workshops are two different worlds. I do like this with the big windows, but I´m not sure them dames without sweaters would make me work better. I´m hopefully moving in a month or so to a very old house with 60 - 70 cm thick walls and small windows. This is essential in summer here. But it´s nice and sunny. Important in the cold winter, and the views......... No dames, pure authentical Andalucía

I understand that a lot of people consider you a very good guitarmaker. Seems that you´ve got stuff very well controlled, and from what I´ve seen on the net, your guitars do look very nice indeed. This with the cam clamps pulling is right on. Havent thought about that, but they sure do pull.
The reason I asked for the clambing time was that with your methods, it sounds like it´s possible to do half the glue joint in the evening, then let it dry overnight, and finish the gluejoint next day. This for builders with few clamps!!!
I also set the angle in the solera, and leave glue joints for the time they need. But then again I´m not pro, so no stress here.



TANúñez -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 16 2004 22:58:37)

quote:

Yeah hopefully the others aren't getting ready to give us the boot for talking shop too much


I am. I hate guitars [:@] Talk about Marimbas instead.



aarongreen -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 17 2004 3:28:54)

Marimbas? Don't even get me started....

Anders,
In so far as the view, who said anything about working harder? I do think that we take our inspiration where we can and this time of year I am beginning to feel more inspired.:)

Your idea about doing half the back one night and the other half later is a good one. I would do the top half and then the bottom but that's just me. One thing you learn as you go along at this is you never, ever have enough clamps. It's just one of those things.



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 17 2004 8:00:28)

This with not having enough clamps is right. And that´s what I like about the traditional rope or rubberband tecnique. I was tninking of going from top to bottom, because I like the way that you control well the gluing of the heel.

Tom doesn´t want to talk about marimbas, he´s just jealous. Tom! finish that Barbero!!!! It´s fantastic to play your own. Or maybe you are in one of your Buddy Holly periods with your sunburst stratocaster?

Anders



Guest -> RE: Pedro Maldonado / cedar top? (Apr. 20 2004 14:33:25)

Hide glue penetrates the wood and keys them together. So you can see why it is harder to pry apart. I believe it also makes for a better acoustical response in the guitar as you don't have this gasket as it were between your braces.
quote:




Aaron

¡Ole! This is what George Lowden taught me in Ireland!! Good glueing is of great importance.

Suerte

Sean



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