RE: All Chords PDF (Full Version)

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mrMagenta -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 2 2008 10:41:58)

Thanks again ricardo, will look it up. Meanwhile i added the D#/Eb chords.. couldn't really decide which to call D# or Eb.. perhaps i ought to have called all of them Eb, but i felt the Eb/E stuff was haunting me.



wiglebot -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 2 2008 13:15:07)

Thanks for this, I need a Flamenco set of chords.

For D#:
My Jazz book follows the circle of 5ths so Eb is used -- an Eb grouping correlates to the intervals of Phyrgian G as a third and Cm as a 6th with Bb, Ab, Eb in the major scale. Plus the minors are 2,3,6 and so on.

Just noticed, this is a tie with 3 sharps and 3 flats -- but the tie breaker is that every letter must be used and there is no "E" and D# creates double Ds in chords. Its your chart though and thanks for it. Double Ds may be a good thing too.



Ricardo -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 2 2008 18:45:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wiglebot

Thanks for this, I need a Flamenco set of chords.

For D#:
My Jazz book follows the circle of 5ths so Eb is used -- an Eb grouping correlates to the intervals of Phyrgian G as a third and Cm as a 6th with Bb, Ab, Eb in the major scale. Plus the minors are 2,3,6 and so on.

Just noticed, this is a tie with 3 sharps and 3 flats -- but the tie breaker is that every letter must be used and there is no "E" and D# creates double Ds in chords. Its your chart though and thanks for it. Double Ds may be a good thing too.


Well, your jazz book is "wrong" when it comes to flamenco. Why? Context again. True in Spain they say "mi bemol" which is like "Eb" to western minded folks, but they are talking about the tonality of the phrygian mode. Eb phrygian would have 7 flats, the accidental to the spanish phyrgian scale making the tonic chord major is G natural.

But it is best when talking about guitar music to go the OTHER WAY AROUND the circle of 5th because of the way the guitar is tuned. You would not want to describe the open strings in that tonality Fb, and Cb, for example. It is just not practical. So D# phrygian actually has only 5#'s in the key signature. So lower common denominator takes over as boss.

The tricky and fun theoretical problem is the raised 3rd...F double sharp, (F## or Fx). But everything else works out really nice, the open E strings and B string are normal.

So D# phrygian will be more "guitaristic" than Eb phrygian, which I guess would be nice for a horn. Jazz preferences in term of theory are always going to favor horn friendly keys. That is why horn players hate Cherokee, but guitarists love it!

Ricardo



duende -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 2 2008 18:59:06)

i think cherrokee´s a cool tune The A section is in Bb and the B section is in several keys B major. Amajor. Gmajor and Fmajor leading back to Bbmajor.

havent played it in years! Ricardo you got me in a Jazz mood here.
there´ll be no flamenco today[:D][:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 2 2008 22:22:55)

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wiglebot -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 3 2008 9:23:16)

quote:

So D# phrygian will be more "guitaristic" than Eb phrygian


So when I look at this chart, I need to know that a D# chord refers to D# phrygian? Thus it is a Flamenco chord chart.

That would not negate Jazz theory agreeing with Flamenco, it just means you have to know that a D# chord does not mean Eb major scale, it means D# phrygian mode.

I can't get the first D# in the diagram -- it looks like Dm. I understand the rest of the chart though.



HemeolaMan -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 3 2008 12:44:05)

perhaps we should put a caveat at the beginning of the chart that most chords are meant in a phrygian context.

but then we would have to change all flat 9's to straight 9's. being that a 9 in phrygian is a minor second above the tonic. hm.

i should get on finishing these.



Ricardo -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 3 2008 21:05:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wiglebot

quote:

So D# phrygian will be more "guitaristic" than Eb phrygian


So when I look at this chart, I need to know that a D# chord refers to D# phrygian? Thus it is a Flamenco chord chart.

That would not negate Jazz theory agreeing with Flamenco, it just means you have to know that a D# chord does not mean Eb major scale, it means D# phrygian mode.

I can't get the first D# in the diagram -- it looks like Dm. I understand the rest of the chart though.


If you want to think like it is a chart, that is no good IMO. The idea was to expose to guitar players coming into the flamenco world, the universe of clever fingerings for special chords found in flamenco guitar, very different than you typical bossa nova/jazz/pop rock whatever. So I think it is important to keep folks focused on context. The GENERAL context for all those dang chords is flamenco music. When will you play Eb in Flamenco? Well, when you are in the key of D phrygian, which happens sometimes. It would be the II chord, and probably have a #11 once you start to understand context.

But nothing so special about FINGERINGS in that context. Usually your standard barres will work. But there is an entire TONALITY based on D# phrygian, and getting that in the mind and soul is important. So those flat 9's are REALLY fricken important, and the way they sound when fingered proper with open strings and inversions. That is a big part of where the "aire" comes from, the whole VIBE of the thing. It is not just about the easiest way to read a chart. So without having tell that whole fricken story to describe ONE chord, at least we can spell it proper to give some idea of the path we are on. Hope that makes sense.



Ricardo -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 3 2008 21:09:25)

quote:

perhaps we should put a caveat at the beginning of the chart that most chords are meant in a phrygian context.


Well the whole point of the project is that these are FLAMENCO SPECIFIC chords. You would think you would not need to be so redundant, and just spelling the chords properly will give most of the needed info. Like a Bb7#11should be automatic thought of as lydian dominant, related to "por medio", if one must get so specific with context, vs. A#7 which will be thought of as not related to "por medio" but more likely the cambio chord in D# phrygian...



wiglebot -> RE: All Chords PDF (Feb. 4 2008 8:27:27)

I get it now, thanks ..... maybe these last 4 thread clears it up for whomever else....

This defines it for me:
quote:

the idea was to expose to guitar players coming into the flamenco world, the universe of clever fingerings for special chords found in flamenco guitar, very different than you typical bossa nova/jazz/pop rock whatever.


EDIT -- just cleaned up my moment of understanding and keeping the thread clean -- been working with this chart, its cool.



mrMagenta -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 3 2009 12:12:34)

I updated the list now. If you find errors in naming, fingering, etc please tell me, so they can be fixed.

I would like to write a better text on the first page, to explain the purpose of the chord list, and ways to use it. Also something ought to be said about the use of harmony in flamenco, and modality, perhaps a theoretical outline that can be used to understand the function/context of the chords. I don't think I am the most qualified guy here to write the theoretical outline though, and could use some help with that.

quote:

the idea was to expose to guitar players coming into the flamenco world, the universe of clever fingerings for special chords found in flamenco guitar, very different than you typical bossa nova/jazz/pop rock whatever.


this is certainly a good use. it could also be used as a reference when looking for some new alternative chords to incorporate in various styles, or when fiddling around with some composing.



gj Michelob -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 3 2009 12:49:57)

Awesome Christmas Gift. Thank you mrMageneta and those who contributed to compiling this useful reference.



Matic -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 3 2009 13:13:00)

Thanks, you all did a great job, especially mrMagenta![:)]



edguerin -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 4 2009 7:50:11)

Thank you mrMagenta!
And all others [:)]

(Am I right in assuming that the latest version is accessed via the link in the top post?)



gj Michelob -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 4 2009 8:40:44)

mrMagenta... before i do anything offending you, after altruistically sharing such useful work, do you imply any restrictions against disseminating this file? Albeit of course, one would give credit to your authorship.



Ricardo -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 4 2009 11:52:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

mrMagenta... before i do anything offending you, after altruistically sharing such useful work, do you imply any restrictions against disseminating this file? Albeit of course, one would give credit to your authorship.


No problem here, so long as you know it was my idea first![:D] I always wanted to make the original thread a sticky because the question about "flamenco chords not found in the chord book" comes up a lot. Thanks to Magenta for turning most of my stuff into pdf, but I still think the simple typed tabs are good. I was hoping more folks would contribute when they come across something new. Here is the ORIGINAL thread.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=17848&p=3&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Ricardo

EDIT, Mrmagenta, I noticed many spelling errors for the chords, but like I said long ago, it is sort of arbitrary to use theory terms for these chord. "Flamenco C# chords" is enough for theory and context IMO. I will have to take time to go through it ALL, but for example, your first D# chord is really Dminor, should have gone above it with the other D minors. That is just at glance.



gj Michelob -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 4 2009 13:31:37)

quote:

No problem here, so long as you know it was my idea first!


It will be a privilege, Ricardo.



mrMagenta -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 5 2009 6:41:15)

Michelob, feel free to use it as you wish. Only one condition, I would be happy if you report any errors you might find. There's bound to be a few, especially in the naming (As Ricardo already observed).

Ricardo, I know it's a lot of work, but i'm happy for all the misspellings you can report. It would feel good to have the correct names in the list, even if it might be a bit redundant. There's also a more selfish reason, I'd like to figure out the things I'm doing wrong in the naming process. [&:]

I see now that i have forgotten to number the chords from E and forwards, I'll fix that when i get a spare moment so that people can refer to chords by their number when reporting a mistake or referring to a chord in some discussion.

It's never too late for other people to contribute with more chords, but i think this is a decent start (virtually all chords are from Ricardo). With some cleaning up, some text on usage etc it could be called a version 0.9 or something



gj Michelob -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 5 2009 7:22:27)

Understood, and i like your approach. This will be a a very good working draft which may need some fine tuning, and any such adjustments should benefit all.

This project aroused my hope that may be the same effort could be undertaken to clearly define palos and compas, any such project in the Ricardo, mrMagenta, HemeolaMan's team?


Thank you for this Chord chart, gentlemen, it is really a precious gift.



gj Michelob -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 5 2009 14:42:03)

I posted the Chords PDF file on the GSI Forum which has obliged my request to have a room dedicated to Flamenco. All feel free to visit the novel room.
http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=112254#post112254

My LH's index finger still inflamed, I cannot play and therefore cannot enjoy this gift yet... 'can't wait.

[by the way, i realized that my injury/inflamation was likely caused by struggling to rotate stiff pegs with such index helped by the thumb... sort of dumb, isn't it. 10 days of no-guitar, and still counting]



mrMagenta -> RE: All Chords PDF (Jan. 7 2009 13:50:00)

Made a small update. Now there's numbers, so each chord can be referenced by root + number, for easy error reporting etc. also.. the chord scale charts had some embarrassing errors in them.



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