foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Full Version)

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HemeolaMan -> foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 27 2007 19:33:56)

accompaniment.

i´m not pdl, pp, tomatito, etc... spending the 6 hours alone in a room getting my picado up to speed isnt something i can afford!

I really like the idea of playing for dance or cante

aside from listening to recordings, playing for dancers... how can i get more information on palos, how to fake it (in a jazz sense)......

........ what shirts to wear.....lol

as far as im aware theres never really been a flamenco "fake book"

you know, instead of tunes like "on a misty night" or "night dreamer" why not assemble a here's a bulerías chart, heres a fandagos¨, this ones an alegrías...

i remember a while back we did a chord ¨collaboration. maybe we could assemble a flamenco fake book, a goodly number of the common palos

if you guys post the progressions and such, i can make them all nice and computery, upload em or publish them hardcopy style.

¿whataya say?



Ailsa -> RE: flamenco fake book (Dec. 28 2007 0:15:08)

Not sure what you are looking for K. You mean like the components you might need for each palo commonly used in a dance class? Say basic compas, llamada, a few straightforward falsetas for each?

Tia Loca



HemeolaMan -> RE: flamenco fake book (Dec. 28 2007 5:07:18)

alot like a jazz fake book

straight ahead compas, changes with rajeo patterns, maybe a falseta or two. just like a page for each palo so that theres a book out there where you can just look it up like a reference, and "fake" your way thru

a fake book lol.

sort of an encyclopedia of here's what you can play if you're in a situation where you don't know the palo.



henrym3483 -> RE: flamenco fake book (Dec. 28 2007 7:48:30)

I like the idea of the chord progs. think a pdf version would be better for disseminating it.



HemeolaMan -> RE: flamenco fake book (Dec. 28 2007 7:53:13)

yes. thats my goal

I will compile the most straight ahead compas for all the palos and all the rasg. patteerns etc, something you can fake your way thru with.

then, using my powers of evil, i will create an unholy pdf, the likes of which the flamenco world has never seen, chords included

finally, i will upload it to be distributed throughout flamenco land!!!!


ALL I NEED IS FOR YOU GUYS TO CONTRIBUTE BECAUSE I DONT KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT FLAMENCO!!!!!!!!

lol [:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]



henrym3483 -> RE: flamenco fake book (Dec. 28 2007 8:07:35)

Il send a chord chart i got recently for the levante toques.pretty comprehensive.
still at parents house for xmas so it will be sat by the time you get it.

suerte

Henry



Ricardo -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 29 2007 2:55:32)

Not a bad Idea. There is a similar thing already for Merengue de Cordoba's vol ii encuentro vid. It has a tab book with falsetas, AND a book in chord chart form.

This would work as a reference, but not for something to do on a gig for sure! Unlike jazz, flamenco singers can litterally break the chart, cut it or extend it, so it does not help to simply follow the chart like in other music styles. But it does make a nice reference.

Ricardo



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 29 2007 9:07:35)

oh never for a gig, i jus tmeant for a noob or someone who isnt familiar with anythign about flamenco, they could sit down read it, get a sense of the compas, have some pre-written right hand patterns with chords and be able to have a starting point!

I would really love to start the ball rolling, but i'm afraid i haven't got anything useful to contribute here lol.

all i have is a bunch of really complex tabs and falsetas which i dont really understand!!!

someone help!

we're looking for the SUPER basics

that way we could make this thing and put it up and have something that new members could refer to that would show very definitely compas structures, strumming patterns and general progressions for each palo.

= fewer questions about "how do i play this.." lol



val -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 29 2007 11:11:03)

Sounds great in theory. Hope you can pull it off. I'd find useful something along the lines Ailsa mentioned - that could be used for emergengy accompanying say a beginners dance class.
Val



mrMagenta -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 30 2007 22:12:19)

sounds great to me



Ricardo -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 4:24:37)

quote:

oh never for a gig, i jus tmeant for a noob or someone who isnt familiar with anythign about flamenco, they could sit down read it, get a sense of the compas, have some pre-written right hand patterns with chords and be able to have a starting point!

I would really love to start the ball rolling, but i'm afraid i haven't got anything useful to contribute here lol.


Well, "pre-written right hand patterns" is already getting extremely complex, IMO, if it is to be authentic. But assuming folks have some compas already, and just need the "charts", I would say it could be done, starting with Alegrias being the easiest, just two chords. Later adding in some sub chords for the same letras.

Taranto for baile being perhaps the most complex chart.

Also would help music reader is the cante melody were written in like the "head" of a jazz chart, with chords above or underneath.

Now I think about, this whole idea is not really good unless you are already a music reader AND have some experience with compas techniques for flamenco...

Best thing is just hook up with a singer and start learning how to accompany, and forget the charts.[:D]



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 5:43:42)

yes. however, alot of people do read music.

the point is, hooking up with a singer or dancer is sometimes impossible.

i'm not trying to assemble a "here's how to play everything in the most sophisicated and interesting way' flamenco book. just a "here's the quick and dirty, a few patterns to play.

obviously putting cante melodies would be a good idea. though, of limited utility to most people.

this is a flamenco primer. just something to throw on the foro so that noobs and somewhat experienced players can have reference to something.



alan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 6:03:16)

Last year I did something similar. It was something like 6 "examples" (about 96 bars in total) of each of 12 palos (a lot of bars!). A music typesetter chap phoned me and asked me for it as he'd had a commission for a book. They paid me for it. So you see my difficulty in sending it out. I've no idea what the book will be called and who will publish it. It would have been a great starting point, and then you'd have to add some actual songs as well.



Ricardo -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 6:07:57)

Ok, Alegrias.

Cmajor - counts 1-6. G7 counts 7-9
C major on count 10-12, and through the next compas all the way to 9.
G7 10 and on through the next compas to 9
C on 10 through next compas,
G7 on 10 etc until the letra is over.

So you just keep compas (rasgueado proper with accents and golpes n stuff) and rock back and forth between C and G7 on count 10. Only thing weird is the very first compas. Now if you dont' listen to the melody of the singer, and put the G7 where the C is supposed to go, what good was the chart?[:D] Just C and G7. Sounds easier than it is.

quote:

the point is, hooking up with a singer or dancer is sometimes impossible.
Then why do you need to learn how to accompany?[:D] Seriously, I know what you are saying, and I am saying learning from a chart or music is WAY WAY harder and more time consuming than if you just sit down with a singer for a FEW MINUTES.

I could lay out a chart of Taranto for guitarist that has some experience but just not for that form, but it would be much faster if he just tried to do it himself, making mistakes here and there to correct, rather than ignore the singer and follow the chart.

But if you want more like the alegrias I am willing to share it.



Zorro02 -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 8:29:10)

I'm really excited about the potential for this thread and look forward to the seeing the completed work. Good luck!!!



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 10:21:44)

ricardo, thank you!

you are the flamenco sage. i seriously think you need to include the word sagacious in your foro name somehow. but that's a story for another day

i originally started this thread to learn something about accompanyment.... however everyone always says the key to learning solo guitar is learning the palos by accompanying.

everyone's goal when they join the foro is different. but, everyone needs to learn compas, and i think that by writing this with the intent of being straightforward and simple in such a way that we can really reveal the compas and make it accessable for new players it would help not only reduce the amount of redundant compas questions, but it would also be a valuable reference say if you try and introduce your local jazz combo to join you for a set or two.

plus, after sitting with a singer or dancer for a few minutes, i still need something written down so that i remember properly what i just learned =) having something to go home and look at to practice always helps me. helps bring structure and a finite goal to my practice time.

that and the definite benefit of being able to reference something that will help you dissect the harmonic content of falsetas (new players that is)

that said, ricardo i appreciate your contribution, i will try and toss something together and send you a pdf to see if i understood what you meant =)

Keep it coming guys!



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 10:26:53)

alan, i understand the copyright problem.

i'm not adovocating that we use something that would put you in danger of lawsuit. however, if you do feel like contributing something, and this goes for everyone:

I'm not going to publish exactly what you send me verbatim. I will make adaptations to avoid any copyright problems. i will credit you in each example though.

I will also make proper citation on references so as to avoid any plagiarism.

no worries guys!



Jim9guitars -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 10:52:54)

I just posted a very basic Fandango de Huelvas pdf file in the "Tabs" section for consideration. I don't know who the guitarist was or whether the arrangement is copyright or not, but I don't think it is anyones in particular, and the recording was made at a dance instruction class. It is intended for use as a dance class accompaniement and is therefore pretty simple. The tape was given to me by a dance instructor to learn for her class.

Jim



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 13:29:02)

Great idea.

I remember i had an idea like this about 5 years ago

but mine was just gonna be to do with guitar.

every exercise for any technique i ever came across, Keys, modes, scales, alzapua etc.

I was really into it for about a week, then i realised that i dont really care if they all in different book or same one [8|]



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 14:43:04)

thank you jim, i will definitely consider them! i was actually just listening to paco penas fandangos de huelvas and i was hoping to get some basic ones!

good timing =)



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 14:44:11)

lol flo i was hoping you'd get in on this thread.

interested?



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 18:05:40)

[:)], sure, what do you need ?

I am not sure what i am soopossed to do [8|]

let me know what u need.


so that u dont get in trouble and can cover yourself, u have to copy all the info and rewritte it .

for example a exercisse out of a book, u cant use the page out of the book, just retab the exercise..... I think that works [8|][:)]

One of the things that will be usefull to you u and allready have here on the forum is the Chord Dictionarry that Ricardo and others wrotte and someone put it in pdf, thats nice and useful.

And Thomas and Patrick wrote a quic usefull, How to record FLamenco guitar pdf, not sure if u wanna devote some time to that too, mibe you can devote some pages to logistical stuff involved to flamenco etc, recording, life sound, how to correctly lower the action of a guitar, nail shape, length and products etc....

A suggestion of how the book may be set up...except for general technique exercises, relate everything to Palos, and not keys.


eg. Say u start with Alegrias in E ...

- in Alegrias, a typical basic Escobilla, variations to it,
- few diff Silencios,
- basic alzapua used in rithm (since Alzapua and Picado are used alot in alegria) variations to it.
- Basic Cierre, variations to it
- Rithm Strumming patterns
- all the Modes and all the known Chords one could use in a key

Repeat all this in all the known Alegrias Keys, except for strumming patterns obviously.

I got alot of exercises, scales etc , i can send you but u have to do the rewritting


it would be cool if at the back you also had a section we had of exercises and different aproaches and views from big name guitarists we had perssonaly had lessons with etc, David Cerreduela or Jeronimo, Jarana, Gerardo, Manolo etc.

exclusive stuff as well as stuff u can find in books

that would be really cool.

It is ALOT of work, but if u are willing to do it, il support you.



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 18:51:35)

quote:

Also you should dedicate some parts to Dance accomp and Cante , and writte related stuff to it that anyone can use.

eg.
- in Alegrias, a typical basic Escobilla, variations to it,
- few diff Silencios,
- basic alzapua used in rithm (since Alzapua and Picado are used alot in alegria) variations to it.
- Basic Cierre, variations to it
- Rithm Strumming patterns

Repeat all this in all the known Alegrias Keys, except for strumming patterns obviously.

I got alot of exercises, scales etc , i can send you but u have to do the rewritting
yeah if i knew anything about how to do that lol.

i really just need people to throw some stuff out at me like, this to this from counts x to y then here. jus thte form, where the golpes go.

i know little about flamenco lol. "oh yes, just do this, you know strum the standard stuff" lol which means little or nothing to me.

scribble out a compas or two on a page with just rhythm marks and scan it! lol that i can build a whole piece form lol.

you guys are the ones i need the help from! i know almost nothing, assume that nothing is taken as read lol.

after that i'll obviously make it purty lookin in sibelius.


quote:

One of the first things u allready have here on the forum is the Chord Dictionarry that Ricardo and others wrotte and someone put it in pdf, thats nice and useful.
sounds exactly like what i'm going to do!

quote:

it would be cool if you had a section we had of exercises from big name guitarists we had perssonaly had lessons with etc, David Cerreduela or Jeronimo, Jarana, Gerardo, Manolo etc.

exclusive stuff as well as stuff u can find in books

that would be cool

it would be super cool. anything you want to see in there would be cool if you contribute lol



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 18:55:04)

well, to get you started, send ,me your email and i will email you some zips filled with pages of Alzapua and exercises and scales etc, will that help ?

I have allready extracted those togheder for myself as i dont like looking trough a million books when i practice, but this is just 10% of what i have, still it will keep you writting and quiet for about 3 months [:)]

then you can start rewritting it.

once you start taking phisical steps towards it , you find that it will slowly start to fall into place, and people might even be more enclined to help once they see that you are serious and comited to it.
Besides atm , you dont have to know anything to just start copying, u do the database entry, we can help fill in the blanks and organise the Ideas.

For eacho Palo u can make Thread, say one Palo a week.

Alegrias in E for - The Real book Project

in there everyone can contribuite everything we can think of in that key and palo that may be usefull.


Everything is possible and doable, you need a plan, commitment, patience and organisational skils, more than knolodge in the subject. The stubborness to keep going and see it to the end even if it seems like everyone else has lost interest.

But if you succed !!!, wow !!! what a book it will be, noone has ever had the patience or commitment to achive something this big and widely helpfull in flamenco. It will also make us flamencos look more togheder and organised, rather than involved just into ourselfs and everyone taking the trip solo.
I mean other genres have they own Real Books.
What makes us less organised ?
There are tons of usefull basic information that isnt written down or put togheder that one could use.

If one was to make notes of everything we have ever talked about at the foro and put it into a book , we would have had the greatest most helpfull book.

its not that farfetched and imposiblle


Every student in every country will be forever gratefull to you [:)]

And the fact that it comes from this forum and we were involved, it will make us even more proud of it and you.


Also might I suggest finding someone as dedicated to it as yourself and share the database entry load, he dosent have to be an expert, is just that most of the work is database entry.


florianremus1@hotmail.com



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:23:49)

I scare myself sometimes with how inspirational i can be [:D]

I should be writting presidential speaches [&:]



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:29:12)

Dig that adopted brother!



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:32:04)

Be a doer !! dont be a dreamer [:)]

people might be sceptical and persimistic at first because of the amount of work and organisational skills involved but there wont be one single person that wont be gratefull to you when you achive it.

And infact want a copy of it.

SO i urge everyone that is in a position to help, to not sitt back but to offer you the suporrt and help you will need from all of us.

And those that dont know how to help but still wanna offer theyr support, to offer theyr services to help you with the database entry.

that way. with help and smart planning you can take this all the way to the end.



HemeolaMan -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:39:08)

lol flo check your email, i'm doing, its 235 am for me lol

thanks for the inspirational! i plan to release this in volumes. one iwth straight up compas etc. after that, the technique stuff from the foro. after that .... thats far down the road lol.

the question is how to distribute this thing. i can put it up as an ebook, or have them printed and bound, and ship hardcopies to you guys.... (good thing i work at a print shop lol)



Florian -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:44:47)

forghet compas, mibe reference to it (etc, bulerias is counted in 12s) , but dont worry too much about it, no compas or notation, majority of flamencos dont read notation, and that is the people you are doing this for. U cant learn compas and feel from a book, just focus on the stuff that you can learn from a bbook, Imo


And NO VOLUMES !! its has to be 1 book ! thats the whole point lol, all the info you need in one place.


but this is your baby , i am just offering ideas [8|]



Ricardo -> RE: foro member flamenco fake book!!!!! (Dec. 31 2007 19:47:24)

I just want to restate that this "idea" has already been done in Video format, so you can see the guitar and singer interact AND follow the chart AND learn the specifics from the tabs:
http://www.encuentro.ch/E2cordoba.htm

30 cantes is not too shabby.

Oh, here are the chords we put up a while back:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=17848&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=all%2Cflamenco%2Cchords%2Ctab



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