Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Full Version)

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Howard -> Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 3:58:42)

Well here we go again, more controversy. Look, I suck as a guitar player, but I think I could play for a flemenco dancer, if I I had the tools to do so. Most of the videos I see on youtube with flamenco dancers, it seems that the guitar player is doing nothing but strumming wildly away on his strings. So what's the big fuss about who's good and who sucks and all that? It seems to me to be a question of, have you got the balls or whatever, to play this kind of music. If you have balls, then I would suggest that you go out and learn how to do the dance. Have you got your tap dancing shoes ready? Are they in your closet? Then strap em' on baby! Let's see how you do without your precious guitar in your hands. It seems to be to me that you don't have to be a very good guitar player, to be a very good flamenco player. It would seem to me that you would need to be a good MUSCIAN to be a very good flamenco guitar player.



Ron.M -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 4:26:33)

Na Howard,
It's not quite as simple as that.
A good dance accompanist will complement a good dancer in a way that makes the whole effect more powerful.
This takes a lot of knowledge and some years to acquire.
Watch even the top guitarists, how when the dance starts they completely focus on the dancer's feet.

Sorry H....it's ALL hard!
No escape or easy way out. [:D]



Howard -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 4:40:18)

Yes i agree that that is probably so, but don't you think that an accompianists time is spent mostly strumming chords?



Ron.M -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 4:49:27)

quote:

mostly strumming chords?


Yep..but...
With compás, rhythm, dynamics, groove....watching out for sudden bits of improvisation from the dancer etc.....

cheers,

Ron



Doitsujin -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 4:57:33)

quote:

Most of the videos I see on youtube with flamenco dancers, it seems that the guitar player is doing nothing but strumming wildly away on his strings. So what's the big fuss about who's good and who sucks and all that?


Well,.. the answere is easy. If you havent made enough experience with playing for dance, you will not be able to play any solo acceptable.
So no playing for dance = no solo.
But only playing for dance is not the save ticket to play good solo, too. But its 100% neccessary.



Ricardo -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 5:56:28)

quote:

but I think I could play for a flemenco dancer, if I I had the tools to do so. Most of the videos I see on youtube with flamenco dancers, it seems that the guitar player is doing nothing but strumming wildly away on his strings. So what's the big fuss about who's good and who sucks and all that?


Well, think about a drummer. What band wants the drummer who has a great technical drum solo, vs a drummer that can hold down a solid beat and complement songs, and has a good memory? The role of the accompanying guitarist is to be the rhythm section...not so easy as it sounds.

Honestly, the guitarists that have technique and musicality AND experience just strumming solid rhythm, will get the accomp. jobs over guys who just strum chords. But when the dance calls for some balls to the wall strumming, and you opt to do a fluffy musical melodic fasleta, well, you will probably get fired![:D]



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 10:50:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard
I could play for a flemenco dancer, if I I had the tools to do so.


I wouldn't want to dance to your music with an attitude like that. I ask, and get, a **** of a lot more than strumming. I expect sensitivity and partnership, and I respect and care for the guitarists that play for me.



Florian -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 17:47:11)

this post just goes to proove how much you know Howard, which makes your other post against me realy really brave.

first off why is there a vs between the 2 ?

accompaning dancers its an art in itself

and no its not only strumming chords, it is so much more, its complete playing, falsetas, arpegio, picado, rasqueados etc, using the compas in a way you wouldnt use it in a solo, perhaps, playing offbeats against the feet of the dancer who is going on beat, or missing out certain parts on purpos to higlight etc. Open your eyes, see some new flamenco videos, watch El Torero with Antonio Canales or even Flamenco WOmen by Mike Figgs.


there are guitarists who have made names for themselfs doing this.

David Cerreduela, Jesus De Rosario, el Viejin, Paco Jarana

Its ok to be ignorant , but becarefull cause to be ignorant and loud almost qualifies you to be president of United States . (no offence intended to the Us members)



Guest -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 22 2007 18:28:42)

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Doitsujin -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 8:31:40)

Well... in my opinion,.. playing for dance is just a tool for becoming better and developing better feeling and technics for solo. I dont like beeing a slave.



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 10:03:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
playing for dance is just a tool for becoming better and developing better feeling and technics for solo

OMG is that really how all you guys think about it? [:@][:@][:@] Doit next time a guitarist plays for me I'm just gonna feel used. Male chauvinism all over again.

quote:


I dont like beeing a slave.

I don't use guitarists as slaves. What about partnership and co-operation? What about working together to produce something good?



val -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 10:55:47)

OK Howard. Put your money where your mouth is. Send us some strumming (whatever takes your fancy). I'm sure Ailsa and I could dance SOMETHING to it.
On the other hand, say we sent you a vid with no background music , palmas etc. Would you be able to accompany it and make it sound exciting?
To accompany dance, you need to UNDERSTAND Flamenco.
Val
EDIT: Flamenco is NOT all about solo guitar



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 11:26:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: val
Flamenco is NOT all about solo guitar

Val's just made a very important point. Doit are you listening? Or rather is your ego listening?



c -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 13:42:22)

The only reason We play solo guitar....
cuz,,,,uhhh.... the dancer is resting ??



johnguitars -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 14:37:26)

A very interesting thread! Although a new player (or attempted player) of "Flamenco" (please arrest me for impersonating a "flamenco"). Back years ago, I worked with a classical Ballet dancer doing what we called "aleatoric atonality" (probably misspelled like everything else in this post). I used 12 tone row (Schoenberg), beating on the piano, silence, a guitar pick to the open strings of said instrument, and any sound that could be conjured up or found in the room. We improvised off of each other using full room length mirrors and a video recording crew. She would lead and I would follow and vis versa. If someone thinks there is a lesser art to working with dancers then playing solo they can go **** themselves and the first large rock that they encounter (yes, sad to say-- the USA president is a Rock of that nature!) Art is life and not just a reflection of it as some would make it ( simple stenographers or typists). There are only different canvases to paint upon. Sometimes the frame vanishes and the room or world become it. As with any great performance--once vanishes and then their is applause.

Damn! I hope we can get rid of this "Bushwaker" in the states!!!



Howard -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 14:52:24)

I hope you all did't think that I meant that all you had to do to be a flamneco guitarist was to strum a few chords, and leave bits of fingernail all over the floor. I am thinking, and hoping, that if I want to be a successful guitarist. that I am not going to have to learn how to play better than Florian. That would be impossible! Is it not possible for an average dumbass like me to play flamenco guitar without being the greatest concerty guitarist ever?



Howard -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 14:54:33)

Oh yeah had to get that dig in Florian. It just seemed right.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 23 2007 15:06:44)

[Deleted by Admins]



Ricardo -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 17:24:32)

quote:

The only reason We play solo guitar....
cuz,,,,uhhh.... the dancer is resting ??


No. Because she is changing her costume.[:D]


quote:

Is it not possible for an average dumbass like me to play flamenco guitar


Hmm....not likely.



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 22:08:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Because she is changing her costume.[:D]



[:D][:D] Absolutely. That's the sort of guitarist I like to work with. One who understands that the main reason for dancing flamenco is to wear a big frilly dress and stamp your feet a lot.



XXX -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 23 2007 22:27:45)

Well you have to understand that for most guitarrists outside Spain it was the music that made them start flamenco playing. So its no wonder why Solo seems more interesting to them, because in Solo you not only have rythm but also more techniques to express yourself, and you can compose things that would be undancable or you dont need to pay attention if it would fit in a choreography. So more freedom in Solo. But that doesnt mean you have to feel like a slave in dance acc... maybe its different from dancer to dancer [:-]

this is only a view from someone who started 6 months ago, so anybody from the experienced accompanists should correct me [;)]

isnt CANTE acc. not much closer to Solo anyway? Because there you have music that you have to pay attention.



val -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 24 2007 0:53:54)

quote:

isnt CANTE acc. not much closer to Solo anyway?

Wow. I think you need to re-think that one Deniz.
Val



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 24 2007 19:47:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: val
Flamenco is NOT all about solo guitar

Val's just made a very important point. Doit are you listening? Or rather is your ego listening?


I just noticed that someone took away two points from me for this post!! [:D][:D][:D][:D]



Ailsa -> RE: Solo guitar vs. Playing for dancers (Dec. 24 2007 19:48:23)

Hahaha! Actually I was Howard!! Had you all fooled no? [:D][:D][:D]



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