solea por buleria (Full Version)

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hassurbanipal -> solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 2:22:32)

ok guys,
sorry to maybe ask this again but I'm confused about something.
when I look it up in information I have I always find that solea por buleria begins on 1, like solea, only a little faster and mostly in the key of buleria and it speeds up at the end to become a buleria.
But in some recordings I listen to people playing from the beginning starting on 12.
To me that's a lot of difference especially with dancers.
So can you help me out, do you start the basic compas on 1 or on 12?
because solea always ends with the remate on the 12 the beat and I thought this was the same for solea por buleria.

The same for alegria. It has always been teached to me starting on 1 but when I listen to some recordings they start from the 12th beat.
Hope you understand what I'm saying here?

Thanks



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val -> [Deleted] (Dec. 18 2007 6:27:08)

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Ron.M -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 7:50:30)

Hi Kev,
But another interesting thing is that Solea por Bulerias rarely, (if never ?) breaks out into Bulerias, whereas Soleares proper often does when dancers are involved. Por qué?

"flaseta" a common typo...
Always makes me think of eating too much Judias Blancas with Cabbage..[:D]

cheers,

Ron



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Ricardo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 16:28:57)

quote:

...it speeds up at the end to become a buleria.

"it" meaning the dance I assume? Otherwise, understand why it is important to distinguish between the roles of what the term "solea" means for guitar vs cante or baile.

quote:

But in some recordings I listen to people playing from the beginning starting on 12.


Compas keeps cycling, there need not be a start or end, and just because you "start" a falseta or compas of strumming or golpe somewhere, does not mean the FEELING of the cycle changes at all. The numbers help you keep track, but don't mean you are forced to do a certain thing on a certain number. Try not to learn by numbers, but learn how the numbers apply to what you can play already. Hope that makes sense.

quote:

To me that's a lot of difference especially with dancers.
So can you help me out, do you start the basic compas on 1 or on 12?

No, it is a minor difference. It is a big difference if you think it changes the feel of the beat and phrase, which it doesn't. For example you can start on 7, and that does not change anything. Lots of dance teachers start palma there or counting from 7 so you dont' have to sit there waiting. But it is a cycle.

Think of a song in 4/4 like tangos. Most of the time the guitar plays AFTER the head beat, not on it, or you do a golpe on the down beat and play afer it. Same idea. Starting on 12 is like hitting a downbeat. Playing on 1 is like playing AFTER the down beat, like pick up notes to happy birthday. Just because the head beat is not played does not change the feel of the cycle. You can start anywhere in the compas so long as you are CLEAR about it.

In many cases the synchopated improvising or cleverness of the soloist (dancer footwork for example) is to "throw off" the accompanist, or rather, the challenge and fun is to stick to the cycle despite where you THINK the rhythm will start or stop. It is a sort of game. Of course there are signals that tell everyone where things are going, and those are like rudiments that everyone learns at somepoint, and puts everyone back on track that understands. Llamadas for example are like that.

quote:

because solea always ends with the remate on the 12 the beat and I thought this was the same for solea por buleria.


Ok, not always. Solea ends on 10, just like her children solxbul and bulerias, and her niece alegrias. The "remate" you refer to is like a follow through to indicate the cycle will keep moving. Same goes for the other forms. Typically in Solea, after an ending on 10 and there is no arpegiated chord to carry through, but more falsetas are coming, you at least get a nice golpe on 12. For good reason. The same can happen with the other 12 beat forms, or that 12th beat can get a nice chord accent or something, it depends. Some dancers have started footwork on that beat. Some falsetas start there.

Point to restate is the rhythm keeps moving unless the whole thing is REALLy over and done. Why to start somewhere or not is learned from those typical phrases and rudiments, that you pick up over time, one by one. Learning the count first does not really help, but rather confuses things, and then makes students in the early stage think they can compose flamenco or arrange things based on math. Learn the thing to play, and when to play it. That is it. Count later IF you feel a need to.

Ricardo



hassurbanipal -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 18:30:21)

thanks ricardo,

that makes a lot of sense.
I know that i'm in compas while playing because it fits with the dance.
but it was just something I had to clear out because in many books they make a difference between palos who start on 12 and the others who start on one.
But I think it doesn't really mather these days, does it? when you are in, you're in......

Ok, now I can relax....:))



John O. -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 19:10:30)

quote:

It is a big difference if you think it changes the feel of the beat and phrase, which it doesn't.


I guess I never asked a pro about this - with a lot of strain I've become accustomed to the feeling of starting on 12 and the feeling of starting on 1 as being different. So when you start on 12 you play with the exact same feeling as you would starting on 1 but giving a beat in advance?

I think if I practise playing this way I'll make life a lot easier for myself [:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 19:26:09)

Theory is good but practice is better.

I´ve been through 2 month of compás and accompany of cante por solea por bulerias and Alegrias here in the Peña flamenca de Huelva.

our compás teacher and singer (el pecas) does not talk about starting on 1 or 12. No way. He HARDLY EVER counts We do palmas with accents on 3 7 8 10 12 or 12 3 7 8 10. What counts is that we follow the compás, have the feeling with good strong accents on 3 and 10. He doesn´t even distinguish between solbul and alegrias and can swap from one to another. He likes alegrias a bit faster than solbul but says it doesnt have to be so.

I learn this way. To much theory makes me look out the window and think about other things. Put some Jerez or other standard solbul with cante on the HIFI, do some palmas. If you cant follow with palmas, then you cant with guitar or cante and thats it. Its a rough world. We have to learn to crawl before we can walk.[8D]



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John O. -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 19:35:54)

Good point Anders. My way was probably more difficult, but I guess it worked for me. I've been with a few teachers too who always emphasized it's important to not count, rather feel.

In the end the best way to learn it isn't understanding the theory but internalizing by doing it as often as possible.



Pimientito -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 18 2007 20:41:34)

Wow, what a great thread, thanks for all the input guys!!
I am doing solea por buleria at the moment with a dance school in Granada and have been having exactly the same problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Solea por Bulerias rarely, (if never ?) breaks out into Bulerias



Er...not quite true Ron. It rarely does in cante or guitar solo but in say a 15 minute choreography the rhythm gets so fast that it naturally flows into Jerez. I was struggling to keep up in sol x bul but there came a point where it went naturally to Buleria, mind you those girls were going at crazy tempo!

The 12 and 1 thing bugged me for a while. Just to simplify Ricardos very in depth explanation..its because with the guitar part you start compas on 12 but sometimes the dancers start on the 1 (as well as other beats)....so guitar is 12(A), 1, 2, 3(B),4, 5, 6, 7,8, 9,10(A) beat 11 may or may not have an arpeggio. So to answer your original question Hassurbanipal, the compas starts on 12.
(I know compas has cycles but it useful to think of beginning and end points)
The escobilla starts on the 1 for both guitar and dancer. This means that in the normal compas you finish on 10 and just have to think about leaving beat 11 for the next round of compas. However if there is footwork after the llamada you have to think 2 beats before starting on the 1.
ps. Cant tell you how many times I got this wrong and was shouted at initially. There is nothing like feeling humiliated in a room full of women to help you learn [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 3:32:09)

quote:

So when you start on 12 you play with the exact same feeling as you would starting on 1 but giving a beat in advance?


Yep. Keep in mind the "beat in advance" is the heavier beat though.

quote:

our compás teacher and singer (el pecas) does not talk about starting on 1 or 12. No way. He HARDLY EVER counts We do palmas with accents on 3 7 8 10 12 or 12 3 7 8 10. What counts is that we follow the compás, have the feeling with good strong accents on 3 and 10. He doesn´t even distinguish between solbul and alegrias and can swap from one to another. He likes alegrias a bit faster than solbul but says it doesnt have to be so.

I concur 100%.

quote:

Key/Mode and tempo aside, Alegrias and SolXbul are supposed to have different aires but little cues have been lost


OK, even though it seems against the earlier statement, this is sort of true too. I mean, you can work on giving the compas, same tempo, by just scratching the strings, no chord. A tapao or apagando, palo seco, how ever you like to call it. There CAN be a subtle difference there, it is a technical thing, the specific rhythm pattern you do, that can clearify the "aire". It is part of the typical rudiments I was refering to earlier, there is the solxbul pattern vs the alegrias pattern. But I think it is so subtle that only a guitarist would notice. I mean if you just did that, dry compas, for a singer or dancer, without them having told you WHAT to play, for them it could go either way.

But if played a game and did one, then the other, and asked "which is which", I think they could get the right answer anyway, which proves there is something to it. The thing is, you dont' need to limit yourself to only certain rudiments because the rhythms are so similar. You can borrow and swap ideas from both forms.

Anyway, check out Tomatito's encuentro vid. First the soleaxbul, then the alegrias. Just stop after the scratching part, and compare the likes and differences, and you will have a more concrete answer to what you think might distinguish the "aire" of the two forms, at more or less the same tempo.

Ricardo



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Ricardo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 4:30:33)

quote:

got yelled at and told that was solea por buleria. So I switched to por arriba


Well that is understandable because it was about the "key/mode", something that you wanted to toss aside for the sake of this "aire" arguement...at least I thought.[:)]

About borrowing ideas, I mean purely rhythmical. Old or new, it should not matter, synchopated or not. The two forms are interchangeable for sure, and even have commonalities with other forms. It can be cool, and I dont' mean fundamentally change the way the compas is interpreted, just little things.

The point about old people or young people are losing the "aire", well, if you can't find the details about the "aire" I mean in that tomatito example, then you can just say the "aire" that distinguished the old way of doing things, is just an unsolvable mystery, lost forever. While I agree old folks have more experience, and can say "yes that has the aire" or not, I personally feel that what ever specific (and personal) thing they are hearing that is "different" is for a very precise technical reason, and if look hard enough, you can find what that is. Of course it seems tedious, but to me that is what mastering the guitar can be like.

Here are two "rudiments"...which sounds like Solxbul, and which sounds like alegrias?

1.)diggity dum DUM, ding ding ding, diggity dum DUM, ding ding ding.
2.)Taka ta TAH, ta ta ta, Taka ta TA TA.......

Ricardo



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mark indigo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 5:13:09)

quote:

1.)diggity dum DUM, ding ding ding, diggity dum DUM, ding ding ding.
2.)Taka ta TAH, ta ta ta, Taka ta TA TA.......


ha ha, excellent, ole!



gato -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 6:17:12)

THANX [:D]



John O. -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 7:02:43)

quote:

I hope Manolo Sanlucar will write a book on these issues


I read an interview with him recently saying it's in the works but will take quite some time. I'd love to have something like that too...



Kate -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 8:45:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
MORE AFTER MY JAPANESE FINAL EXAM[:D][:D][:D]


Good luck.

Interesting thread going on here. I am not a guitar player but have been listening and trying to do palmas for years now. Am possibly still nowhere but what the hell, when you get it right it feels good and yes practice is better than theory but its great to share experiences and understanding. I'm going to do some classes at Emilio's school in the new year. Am very excited about that.

Like I said nice thread guys.

Kate



val -> [Deleted] (Dec. 19 2007 13:18:18)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 17:49:27



eccullen -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 13:37:02)

wow, wonderful thread: Thank you to all !



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 19:20:37)

Even though the compás of SolBul and Alegrias is the same, the feel and aire is different to me. Almost all players incl. me, play SolBul more accentuated and Alegrias with a sligthly lighter more upbeat touch. Alegrias have this air that sometimes reminds me of when I played Mozart or Haydn on the violin many years ago. Alegrias can be so elegant, whereas SolBul kicks a++.
I think its the mode, the phrygian versus the major mode and also because of SolBul having a more modal feeling, where the chords are more "hidden" and always has this comming back to Tonica feel, a bit like Siguiriyas, whereas Alegrias is basically Tonica, dominant and subdominant, something whe´ve heard since kids, being Mozart or Bob Dylan.

Another thing is the SolBul/solea por medio thing. I always hear a more elastic compas in solea por arriba than por medio, and it always cost me a lot to play solea por medio, because I get this SolBul feeling..

Well, to much theory, back to practice. Today I´m going to play SolBul with Manuel Soto Sordera/Paco Cepero and Bulerias with La Perla de Cadiz/Manuel Morao. You dont have to be in Spain in order to do so. [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 19:21:29)

quote:

The track labelled solea is one I've always thought of as Solea por bulerias.


Well at least it does not say "Alegrias"![:D][:D]

Seriously, we talked about it before, but, the term "solea por bulerias" does not really refer to a specific cante. You have solea from this town or that town, or this guy or that guy, and bulerias por solea, or "pa escuchar", but not really "solxbul". Lots of times I hear solea from Jerez sung for the dance called solxbul, but anyway, we all understand the term as applied to guitar or dance. But some old timers don't use the term anyway.

So my point is, with this snippet I don't hear all the cante so it could go either way, and even still I don't have a "problem" with only the label "solea" for this. I would not call it "bulerias por solea" based on this clip anyway.

Ricardo



hassurbanipal -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 19 2007 21:49:36)

thanks guys,

this is a thread I'm going to print out and give it to my dance teacher with whom I play.....that'll teach her...:))
no, seriously, it's interesting to see that when we would meet up we would probably all play the same but talking about it how it fits and how it feels is difficult I guess.
but sometimes you need to know the theory like pimientito explained, so many beats, you start there and when that comes you have to start like this...

so very very very interesting......



val -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2007 0:52:33)

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Ricardo -> RE: solea por buleria (Dec. 20 2007 7:41:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: val

quote:

I would not call it "bulerias por solea" based on this clip anyway

What WOULD you call it?
Val


Solea OR Solea por bulerias based on the short clip. Sorry I don't have the full version. I have another CD of them, again fast por medio. I thought Solxbul years ago, but a dancer showed me that regardless of the speed, the cante por solea IS what it is...it is a melody. If she sang a full normal letra of solea later in the piece, it would warrent the title it was given, and I would bet she does since that is what they called it.

If it WAS labeled Solxbul, again, I would assume that was the name given to the DANCE, even though the singer sang solea. Again I dont' have a problem. Hope that makes sense?

quote:

The meter of some of the poetry of solea becomes impossible to sing at bulxsol tempos.
At least that is my experience.


I would agree with you about the meter or rhythm of the MELODY, but the poetry is the same even for bulerias. Have you not heard singers sing the same exact letra por bulerias as Solea? But even still, Solea is a melody that can be sung same speed as as bulerias almost, depending on the little melismas and stuff. But singing it SUPER slow as a lot dancers require, IMO, seems to have been much harder for both singers and guitarists alike. Nowadays, singers that sing for dance a lot are real used to that feeling, and get on the guitarist's case more about pushing the tempo, then they probably did in the old days.

quote:


You must be talking about Sanlucar's Bulerias
I asked a few people what they thought about that, everyone said bulerias.
Bulerias de Cadiz to be exact. The key implied Cadiz to everybody.
The remates also implied bules to everybody (5 people or so.)


5 people huh? Well I guess Manolo was wrong about what to call his OWN piece than, LOL! At least for that movie. And yet you still want to read his book???[8|][:D][:D]

I have no probs with Bulerias de Cadiz myself, as I have stated dozens of times before. But now we are off topic again!

OK to generalize my thoughts before we go in circles with this stuff, I want to say the difference guitarwise, between Solea por medio and Solea por Bulerias if you were to play them back to back in a performance and make them sound different, is:
1. Solea por medio should be slower, and CAN be looser or more elastic. Doesn't have to be, but more laid back is ideal.
2. Solea por bulerias is usually a bit faster and more steady or at least rhythmically driving forward. Bulerias por Solea would be the same thing guitarwise too. More aggressive than solea, more on top of the tempo.

The above really does not NEED to affect a cante performance at all, but sometimes does. Dance usually incorporates a medley of guitar feels and cantes, all under the umbrella of a single title. Not so typical to have a SLOW solea por medio dance, but I have heard it done (hence A LOT of experienced dancers don't like the sound por medio for Solea, they associate with faster rhythm of Solxbul and probably afraid about the tempo pulling up).

If that makes no sense to anybody, what I will do is shoot a vid of that same Solea Por buleria I did, but with the "aire" of Solea instead. Maybe that would make sense?



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