a humbling experience (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 19:02:57)

I just got done hanging out with Gaetano, the most successful local flamenco around. He plays guitar well and sings, and has a 7-piece band that plays 4 nights a week at the Hyatt in Scottsdale. He was borrowing a Vicente Carillo guitar and wanted to hear mine, to see how it changed with time. After checking out the guitars, we were talking about where I wanted to go with my career. I ended up playing some pieces with him, and then we jammed a little bit.

Now, everyone here thinks rumba is a silly, easy thing, but... when he played the rumba strum, it sounded SO good. He is one of those people that play a simple little strum and it's just--that's what it's supposed to sound like! When we played it together, it turned out I would hit the accent a little before him, so it didn't swing. I need to work on that. Imagine how hard playing bulerias correctly must be!



Ron.M -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 19:41:47)

Mike,
That's what I've been going on and on about....
"The Sound"!
I mean folk learn all these really complicated falsetas and so on, then they go to Spain and hear a 14 year old strum a few chords and think "&@!$*.
I know... it happened to me!
So I know how you feel.

cheers

Ron



TANúñez -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 19:41:52)

Hey Miguel, Isn't Gaetano the guitarists who recorded all the sound files for the Zavaletea's flamenco samples? He is very good from what I hear.

Lately I have been listening to a lot of Rumba and I'm liking it more and more. I'm thinking about ordering the Graf-Martinez Rumba material.

So what did he think of the Carrillo?

How is the life of a newlywed treating you?



Escribano -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 20:23:35)

quote:

I know... it happened to me!


and me[:'(]



Billyboy -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 20:34:57)

I think a lot of that Spanish sound comes from the right hand strength and power that comes from learning from a young age, the pro flamenco players I have met, have right hand strength which creates unbelievable volume, with rasguados, and picado sections which sounds like a machine gun going off, thats what I'm doing at the mo, just giving my right hand a work out, by doing 5 finger rasguados until my right hand aches like hell, resting for a minute then starting again, Iam sure that the sound they get is because of this right hand power,and endurance which gives the volume. In Spain you get this through much accompanying, which us Brits get very little chance of doing.

Dave



Miguel de Maria -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 20:41:39)

Well, we did talk about strength, Gaetano said you get a little stronger every year. Of course everyone says you need to play for dancers that does it, too, I think. But I think the essence here was rhythm. You think about a simple rumba strum, nothing complicated, or a very simple compas of bulerias. Well this guy has a knack of playing something that you learn at your first flamenco lesson and it sounded good. I hate to say it but Gaetano partaways grew up in Spain, I hope that's not what it takes. On the plus side, he did say that my picado is probably better than his.

He didn't like the Carillo for his purposes. He says it has very sweet highs, but that it doesn't respond well to aggressive rasgeuo. It doesn't get much louder when you play is more aggressively, and it has a harsh and not warm sound in those circumstances. He did say he thought it was perfect for leads and solo guitar, which is what I do anyway. It was interesting that the VC he had sounded almost exactly like mine. There were some minor differences, but mine is a year old... But you could certainly tell they were the same model of guitar.

Tom, married life is good. I can't complain.



Escribano -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 22 2004 21:43:57)

quote:

In Spain you get this through much accompanying, which us Brits get very little chance of doing.


Tell me about it[:(], that IS flamenco. Ron has a point, sorry to harp on, but one definitely has to get down there for the Mother of all lessons. Here's what I wrote to an email buddy:

quote:

An American guy walked in, who studied under Diego Gastor 30 years ago, and plays. The pena ignored him completely, all falsetas and thumbs, no singer could accompany him. When the cante starts with another guitarist, the crowd falls silent. It's like Hendrix playing and no-one listens, then someone else played real slow, simple solea chords; a singer chooses to sing and everyone is quiet.

They couldn't give a **** if you were playing with chair leg if you played in compas and with chords. When I asked what the Spanish word for "chords" was, they replied "compas" :-)



Ron.M -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 8:10:47)

quote:

Now, everyone here thinks rumba is a silly, easy thing, but... when he played the rumba strum, it sounded SO good. He is one of those people that play a simple little strum and it's just--that's what it's supposed to sound like! When we played it together, it turned out I would hit the accent a little before him, so it didn't swing. I need to work on that.


quote:

Dave, you know that Ron is crazy, right? He'll spend 3 hours on a little thumb passage trying to get all these sounds that no one else even hears


Welcome to the Crazy Club! [:D][:D]



Kate -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 11:16:36)

quote:

An American guy walked in, who studied under Diego Gastor 30 years ago, and plays. The pena ignored him completely, all falsetas and thumbs, no singer could accompany him. When the cante starts with another guitarist, the crowd falls silent. It's like Hendrix playing and no-one listens, then someone else played real slow, simple solea chords; a singer chooses to sing and everyone is quiet.

They couldn't give a **** if you were playing with chair leg if you played in compas and with chords. When I asked what the Spanish word for "chords" was, they replied "compas" :-)



Hi Simon,
Estela knows more about the Morón toque to explain why this is so but I know that when Diego, his nephew, came to the Peña here in Granada, someone tried to insist he play for Carmen. He explained he did not accompany, in fact could not. I take it Diego del Gastor was the same. I took an American who studied with Diego del Gastor to our local 'most surreal Peña in the world ' and although everyone loved his style he could not really play for the singers, though he did not flinch from trying and they all really appreciated him. ( Andres if you have not found this place I shall have to take you, am hoping to pass by your shop... ok I know its not YOUR shop.... tonight but if not will try and make it Thursday, as I am meeting up with Estela at the Peña Platería, if you want to join us)

Also Simon I thought the Spanish word for chords is 'cuerdas', which also is used for 'strings'. Again Estela would know more. I fear my Spanish is falling apart a bit, I found myself saying 'busotro' the other day, ( instead of vosotros) ah that old Andaluz slang, its all Harold has ever learnt though as he never picked up a book or had a lesson in his life. So be careful who you learn from.

Kate



Jon Boyes -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 11:21:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Now, everyone here thinks rumba is a silly, easy thing, but... when he played the rumba strum, it sounded SO good. He is one of those people that play a simple little strum and it's just--that's what it's supposed to sound like!


I have to share the frustration on this - I am coming round to the idea that phrasing is the hardest nut to crack in flamenco. Being able to play some is one thing, but playing it and not sounding like Ron's 'Elvis impersonator' is another thing entirely.

I find it a very odd that the flamenco tuition resources on the market devote so little to playing flamenco rhythm. There seems to be a whole load of stuff out there on developing basic techniques, a whole load of simple beginners solos with easy falsetas, and for advanced players there are plenty of transcriptions of modern players doing advanced solo stuff (like the Encuentro series and Fauchers books). But we seem to have a huge gap in the material that focuses on rhythm. I know there's the argument that you have to accompany in order to learn this properly, but I'm sure there's scope for something that teaches 'authentic rhythm'.

What I'd really like to see is a tutition book/cd video that focus on this, playing through variations of the main palos, and with input from the tutor pointing out the accents and phrasing. In other words, a method that teaches exactly what Mike, Ron, and the rest of you are talking about, without fussing about falsetas, or focussing too much on what rasgueado is used when. If I were writing a flamenco method, this seems to me to be the logical approach - solid rhythm/compas first, then drop in the falsetas later. Its like learning the blues, you don't leap in and start playing Stevie Ray Vaughan licks, you start off learning twelve bar blues, triplet boogies (the Status Quo rhythm) and get your rhythm sorted first.

In the middle of Juan Martin's first Video on Bulerias, he plays a short demo of a modern bulerias to show the compas, without any falsetas just rhythm variations, and its probably the most valuable bit on the video.

The Faustino Nunez CD is a step in the right direction ("Oh, THAT'S what Tangos is supposed to sound like" [:D]), but there is precious little of it. There is no music/tab to illustrate what the guitarist is playing, and the narrator is only concerned with counting the compas as opposed to commenting on what the guitarist is actually doing.

By the way, if there IS a tuition resource that does this kind of thing, please say so!

Jon



Escribano -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 11:21:16)

quote:

Estela knows more about the Morón toque to explain why this is


I would be interested in Estela's take on Morón and Jerez - the same thing happened to Fergus, bashing away did not get any attention until a singer joins in, then the place falls quiet.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 18:39:40)

Jon, actually I think maybe ALL popular music is like this. Imagine yourself trying to learn blues or heavy metal or pop guitar. Do you really think they have tons of books on the subtleties of playign the rhythm with true swing? Or do you think they just teach you some licks and two handed tapping and transcribed solos of Eric Clapton? I think good rhythm is something you learn in a band.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 18:46:07)

Another thing I noticed about Gaetano is that each of the strums had a lot of SEPERATION. For example on the rumba strum, the thumb sounded, then, the index, then the index again, etc. etc. It's like doing a rasgeado, they sound good when each one fires in sequence. Billyboy was right when he said this takes strength, you have to get the whole finger through before the next can go, and that takes power. Of course this is only one effect on the guitar, although I think it's an important way to play.



Jim Opfer -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 23:02:55)

Dave,
You should be carefull, never do anything till your hand aches. The trick is to do it till your hand doesn't ache!
I know, must read like one of those mixed up eastern philosophy riddles, but it's true. You must practice within your ability and always be comfortable. It's the frequency of quality practice and not going at it, that counts.
You mention picado and right hand, but my take on this is that picado is a left hand (fretboard skill). Most people will have sufficient dexterity already in their right hand to alternate the fingers for picado, the problem always lies in the left hand. My picado is not brilliant, but I found it helped when I play a run and concentrate on what my left hand is doing, the right hand just falls into line.
Just my ideas, but give it some thought!
Cheers
Jim.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 23 2004 23:55:22)

Jim, I have always considered picado a mainly right hand thing. My left doesn't have too much problem. When I have had problems, it's my right getting caught up or confused. I think the real secret is to know the rhythm in your head explicitly. I have a post called "Practice demonstration" which shows this concept.



Jon Boyes -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 24 2004 8:34:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Jon, actually I think maybe ALL popular music is like this. Imagine yourself trying to learn blues or heavy metal or pop guitar. Do you really think they have tons of books on the subtleties of playign the rhythm with true swing?


Yep, there's loads on the market. You can get videos, books and CDS devoted to just playing rhythm. I just did a search on one online store that specialises in classical guitar but carrys other titles, and it came up with eleven books with 'rhythm guitar' in the title - books from jazz, rock, blues etc.

Other styles are light years ahead of flamenco in terms of tuition resources, Mike. In rock guitar they've had the 'hot licks' videos - the equivalent of the Encuentro vids - for at least a decade before the Encuentro vids came out, and theres dozens of titles to chose from. In the realm of rock and blues you can get whole books/CDS dedicated to one particular technique like tapping, or vibrato or whatever. This is like having a whole book on alzapua, or picado.

Flamenco will get there, but other styles have a couple of decades head start on us.

Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: a humbling experience - picado problem solver (Mar. 24 2004 8:59:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
You mention picado and right hand, but my take on this is that picado is a left hand (fretboard skill). Most people will have sufficient dexterity already in their right hand to alternate the fingers for picado, the problem always lies in the left hand.


Its a combination of factors, but I think you are quite right to raise the importance of left hand fingering, as practically no-one seems to mention it when discussing picado. Its as if theres this assumption that the left is functioning perfectly.

Here's a simple, logical test to work out where your (one's) weaknesses are in picado, and balance both hands. You'll need a metronome. Lets say you want to play a scale run in 16ths at 140 bpm:

Firstly, can you alternate your fingers that fast on an open string? If yes, you know your right hand is up to the job. If no, its pointless adding in extra complexities like left hand fingering AND string crossing into the equation and somehow hoping it will all work out. The speed at which you can alternate IM on a single note is your upper limit, it is imposible for anyone to play a scale faster than this.

Assuming your right hand is up to it, next try the left hand. Can you finger notes in a scale with the left hand at the required speed? (ie without actual playing anything with the right hand for now). If no, you need to work on your left hand so it play at ther same speed as the right - finger independence and control exercises.

If the left hand can play at the sames speed as the right, but you still can't play picado runs at that speed, the problem is synchronising both hands. Solution - work on synchronisation exercises (Florian posted a bunch of things recently which are basically synchronisation exercises.)

Finally, you may find you can rip away at notes one string, but extended scales across several strings trip you up, in which case you need to work on string crossing exercises, or solutions that make the cross easier (accenting the cross so your brain has something to aim for, arranging the fingering order to make the crosses more comfortable, 'slipping the fingers' -playing a decsending cross with the same finger, etc., etc)

Jon



Miguel de Maria -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 24 2004 15:05:38)

Jon, what if you can play real fast sometimes, but sometimes you play so sloppy it's disgusting?



Jon Boyes -> RE: a humbling experience (Mar. 25 2004 8:19:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Jon, what if you can play real fast sometimes, but sometimes you play so sloppy it's disgusting?


Thats called 'life' [:D]

Seriously - everyone has off days, or even off moments. I don't think you should confuse that with where you are generally in the scheme of things. On real off days, its probably better to put the guitar down and do something else.

Watch the great man himself falter in the live Entre Dos Aguas clip in the Light and Shade Vid, for example (although to be fair the band are taking it at a faster pace than the record).

Jon



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