"The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=77499



Message

Adam -> "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 0:35:07)

I found an interesting quote in this interview with Santiago Lara:

quote:

In a recent interview, Cañizares said he recommended young people to get to know the sources better...

We have different references. He’s worked with Paco de Lucía, who’s an immediate reference. They’ve overcome their predecessors, so they’re our reference. And then there’s the interest for the accompanying group. I know very well that the farruca by Sabicas is the essence.


Interview

I find that perplexing, and interesting...anyone have an idea what he means by that?



Doog -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 6:05:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts

I found an interesting quote in this interview with Santiago Lara:

quote:

In a recent interview, Cañizares said he recommended young people to get to know the sources better...

We have different references. He’s worked with Paco de Lucía, who’s an immediate reference. They’ve overcome their predecessors, so they’re our reference. And then there’s the interest for the accompanying group. I know very well that the farruca by Sabicas is the essence.


Interview

I find that perplexing, and interesting...anyone have an idea what he means by that?

quote:



"he recommended young people to get to know the sources better..."

The sources are the flamenco greats that preceded us. From way back: Ramon Montoya, Javier Molina, Nino Ricardo, Monolo de Huelva, Melchor de Marchena, and Sabicas. These are the supremely talented artists that preceded Paco de Lucia, Manolo Sanlucar, Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, Gerardo Nunez, and other more 'modern' flamenco guitarists.

"We have different references. He’s worked with Paco de Lucía, who’s an immediate reference. They’ve overcome their predecessors, so they’re our reference."

References = sources, i.e., our predecessors. Paco, et. al., have "overcome" their predecessors by taking flamenco artistry to the next level. So now Paco, et. al., are our reference [immediate source] just as the above mentioned greats were Paco, et. al.'s reference [immediate source/or resource].

"And then there’s the interest for the accompanying group. I know very well that the farruca by Sabicas is the essence."

I am not sure why he connected Sabicas and the Farruca in particular. However, Sabicas certainly embodied the essence of flamenco in everything that he played. He was a supreme accompanist of the cante and baile and was dedicated to always maintaining compas. As a soloist, he was uniquely outstanding and talented.

This is my take on your referenced quote. I hope it helps you.

Doog



Adam -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 8:54:19)

Thanks! Yes, I can certainly understand referencing Sabicas, taking him as a great source...but the farruca in particular? That I would like to know more about.



Doitsujin -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 12:16:43)

When I just throw a look at the pictures of Lara in the interview (seeing him playing with Sanlucar). Several things come into my mind which are bugging me so often in flamenco...

Isn´t it allways the same? They all help each other to get good biographys. When they have kids, they put them on stage during the bienal. They just flounder around on stage with 7years and no one except joung mothers and fathers enjoy it. But they can write in their biography: Danced at the bienal at the age of seven for "Moraito" f.e...
The same for grown up guitarrists. Popular ones like Manolo Sanlucar or Paco let them acompany 1-2 times.. than you can read everywhere.. Joined Pacos group or spend a long time studying with Manolo Sanlucar... Well.. I think so many players who wrote that they spend several years with Manolo Sanlucar, cant realy done that. If so.. Sanlucar must be 200years old...
Yesterday I had a short talk with a professional very good guitarrist. And he told me that you have to be authentic. If a none spanish person plays flamenco.. this person shoud respect his roots and shouldnt use a spanish name. Coz thats not authentc. Its just for the crowd to get gigs more easyly. The same for CDs and tracks. I think he´s right in some cases but also wrong.
The thing with "on stage with just 7 years at the bienal... is exactly the same thing, no? For getting attention.. In the end for getting jobs and money. So makes that more autentic?

In the end they try to delimit flamenco on just spanish people. They one promote themselves with the "on stage with paco" thing. And another bad thing I heared about is.That they have at some famous contests the category "best non spanish guitarrist". If thats not ****ing bad and also a bit rasistic... I dont know. Thats also the thing with delimiting flamenco on theyr country.


I know great guitarrists. f.e. one you all should know Adam del Monte. He´s very authentic and not spanish. Or Juan Carmona the french guitarrist. He talked in an interview about the racisim in flamenco. And he also think that there are bad things still going on.


I´m speechless. Do only me think so? ... I try to get clear about that all.. But it´s not possible atm. ..

Hmm.. that is a difficult topic I think. I think much about that.



John O. -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 13:52:07)

The farruca by Sabicas is rhythmically and melodically very very clear, each falseta from beginning to end. Beautiful, expressive and inspiring, but not too flashy. I assume he means this is the style many accompanying guitarists like playing most. Not sure though, I could just imagine this being the case.

Doit, I do see where you're coming from. You can't blame them for using advertising to their advantage though, it's done everywhere. If they suck, they would never sell millions of records or be sold out every night just because they played with Paco or Manolo 1-2 times, it's really only a way to get the name out - if they're no good it's more to their disadvantage, really.

As far as the Spanish/non-Spanish thing goes, I've experienced Germans coming up to me and speaking Spanish just because we're in a flamenco school. Really don't get it [&:] I guess some people get into "Spanish Mode" and can't help it.

The thing with the name, I don't know. If somebody gets a Spanish name and ends up becoming more famous with that name, it's best to keep it. Basically when you get on stage you're an entertainer and if the Spanish name is part of the package ... I admit I sometimes think it's a bit silly, but I don't judge it.

The singer in my group has a Spanish name and in my opinion deserves it. Not necessarily because of how good she is (though she dances and sings very well), it just fits the personality, she's very flamenco. Her Spanish jaleos are so authentic - I've almost fallen off my chair a couple of times [:D]



Pimientito -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 16:11:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

If a none spanish person plays flamenco.. this person should respect his roots and shouldnt use a spanish name. Coz thats not authentic.


Sorry but that attitude is a bit (if not rasict) elitist. I can understand his point that someone pretending to be Spanish when they are not just to get gigs is a bit lame and is not being true to who you are, but using a Spanish nickname for a Spanish art form seems totally OK to me.
Firstly nearly all artists and entertainers change names. Bob Dylen is Robert Zimmerman, Elton John is Reginald Dwight. Flamenco is entertainment and even the Spanish artists are given (or give themselves) silly names (little shrimp, small tomato etc.) To say that using a nickname in flamenco (spanish or otherwise) is not authentic is nonsense. NEARLY EVERYONE IN FLAMENCO CHANGES THEIR NAME.

As for the roots of a player, I really think it depends on how you end up getting your flamenco name. If you spend any time in Spain you are going to get called Juan instead of John or Ricardo instead of Richard. The gypsies from Nerja started calling me "pimientito" 7 years ago as a joke. The name stuck and if the flamencos themselves want to give you a spanish nickname...how can that not be authentic!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 17:19:39)

[Deleted by Admins]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 17:33:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



Ricardo -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 17:52:37)

The memorable melodies of Sabicas' Farruca are note for note from Ramon Montoya. I was just listening the other day. Perhaps Ramon ripped it from Borull or someone we never heard of. "Essence" means the good old stuff that defines the standards.

Doit has a point, some guys PRETEND they are spanish or even claim to be gitano when they are not. But you have to accept nicknames when they are given.

Ole RRRiiiisharrr...



John O. -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 18:15:23)

Now that with the pronunciation is a good point, never thought of that. Here in Germany my name is Tschon, John is too much of a strain for most Germans and sounds rediculous in a German sentence. I remember Errol calling me Juanito once, which I thought was cool, but I didn't change my name because of it. It's better than Lil John though, which is already taken anyways ("YEEEEAAAAHHHH!") [:D]

Still, where "Olé Chan!" sounds weird, so does Herbert "El Pepe" Hufschmidt [&:]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 18:43:57)

[Deleted by Admins]



XXX -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 19:52:34)

Apart from the name thing there is a thing like "flamenco=spanish", or what Doitsujin mentioned with the category for "best non-spanish" guitarist. It has different variations like "only spanish people can play flamenco", meaning they do it better and "only spanish should play flamenco", meaning that flamenco "belongs" to them/their culture (as if it was property or something; its just music that can be done everywhere where flamencos come together. Music has no nationality which is good.).

The real funny, or not so funny thing is, there are spanish AND non-spanish people saying almost the same thing. A non-spanish "racist" (just to keep the terminology) would mean it negatively (inferior culture), a spanish would mean it positive. Maybe these people dont want to be racists or dont realize that they make racist thoughts.

The interview with Juan Carmona tells more than words can express. It is a shame for the flamenco scene of spain if they disrespect such a great player like him only because hes non-spanish.

Yes Spain is geographically the place with the most and probably best flamenco, but that doesnt mean that anybody on the world could not do it. It is a question of how much means to learn you have. When you have 20 top guitarists, singers and dancers around you, it is no wonder that you develop faster... THAT is the reason why there are many good guitarists in spain.

About giving non-spanish names... it IS a difference if they do it because they cant pronounce it, or because they just dont care about your name because its non-spanish. If you already changed your name to a spanish one and introduce to everybody with that name than its obviously ok.



koella -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 20:21:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz
When you have 20 top guitarists, singers and dancers around you, it is no wonder that you develop faster... THAT is the reason why there are many good guitarists in spain.


Yes it's unfair. Problably that's also why they all talk Spanish so fluently. Because everyone around them does.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 20:29:24)

[Deleted by Admins]



Ron.M -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 21:34:33)

I actually heard that Sabicas was born in Riddrie, Glasgow.

cheers,

Ron



John O. -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 21:38:46)

Huh? [&:] I though it was Seattle, he was raised in Germany though.



Ron.M -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 21:43:06)

Well, you can have your views John, but I can assure you that if you go into a good Kiltmaker in Princes Street in Edinburgh, they will be able to fit you out with a genuinely authentic Sabicas Tartan.

cheers,

Ron



koella -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 21:44:25)

Sabicas is a Dutch name.
His parents moved to Pamplona in 1910. They were farmers who emigrated to Spain to satisfy the need for cheese and wooden shoes.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 22:04:08)

[Deleted by Admins]



koella -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 22:21:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
I've heard that flamenco guitarists used to only play melodies with the pulgar, and then Montoya came and introduced things like arpeggios, tremolo, etc..


Which he lent from people like tarrega, pujol and the like of course. Or where they not around then yet ?



Pimientito -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 4 2007 22:28:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

"only spanish people can play flamenco", meaning they do it better and "only spanish should play flamenco", meaning that flamenco "belongs" to them/their culture



Most people will conceed that Spanish gypsies invented (or largely influenced) Flamenco guitar playing, but to argue that no one else can play flamenco is like arguing that the Japanese don't know how to make cars!



val -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2007 22:29:08)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 16 2010 21:59:51



John O. -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 0:31:16)

quote:

Well, you can have your views John, but I can assure you that if you go into a good Kiltmaker in Princes Street in Edinburgh, they will be able to fit you out with a genuinely authentic Sabicas Tartan.

cheers,

Ron


Nope, born in Seattle, raised in Mainz. I live in the apartment he grew up in [:)]



XXX -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 0:40:56)

Hm my comment was lost over the internet and i didnt copy it. Just a few notes i remember:

Romerito, i dont know why you feel offended. Im not saying about cultures, or saying people should not cross cultures. Im just against the determination "culture (or race, or nationality) makes people". Besides cultures should meet at "eyeheight", means no culture should look down or up on other. It is likewise a prejudice to say flamenco is music of lazy giypsies as it is to say it is something mystical that only the hands of an Gitano(tm) can reveal. And dont get me wrong i dont want to prohibit adapting to a culture.
Oh and because of the "probably"; i just used the word to not judge over other peoples tastes where or what is the "best" flamenco. It is my opinion that it is spain, but it doesnt have to be another ones opinion.

Koella, language is other than music a matter of state or nationality. You cant decide to speak spanish in Holland, you have to get through the day and you could even get problems with the authorities of state. Good example: the basques in spain. So i think your ironic comparison doesnt hit the nail. But you can pick up flamenco and the only thing limiting you is the wideness of your flamenco scene. Well maybe i am thinking too much about it, but it just bothers me. :-/

Yeah i have to admit i would like to be in spain, but not because im horny for the culture, but because im horny for flamenco. Maybe horny is not the exact word, but you know what im saying?



Ricardo -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 1:04:49)

Doit has also a good point about that guiri guitarist award. Like, what if a guiri is one day the best in flamenco guitar, like the payo is today. Does that mean he can win TWICE???[:D][:D] In other words, it is obvious the Spaniards recognize the guiri power, and out of fear have tried to keep it some how separate from the pure blood awards.

But Romerito's point is good too. The beauty of studying cultures, or what defines them, is what they as a group have for themselves, what is very natural to them. Like and Indian from the Andes playing those wood flutes (those people have BIGGER lungs for a reason) or a group of shoalin monks doing their kung fu, or some Spanish gypsies doing their flamenco, or French gypsies doing their "hot jazz". From the point of view of culture, it is beautifull to recognize that purity and natural ability.

But just so you know, the world is getting so small, even some Indians from the Andes now recognize some Japanese guys that play Charango better and very "pure" than anybody. And sure the Japanese guys dress up in traditional andes gear and play the part, but it is out of respect. So sure the same can happen to flamenco. Making a "foreignor" award is a way to delay the inevitable.

Oh yeah, Sabicas was non andaluz for sure, and I dont' care WHERE he was born, he was 100% NEW YORKER, USA.

Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2007 2:04:26)

[Deleted by Admins]



Adam -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 6:11:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The memorable melodies of Sabicas' Farruca are note for note from Ramon Montoya. I was just listening the other day. Perhaps Ramon ripped it from Borull or someone we never heard of. "Essence" means the good old stuff that defines the standards.

Doit has a point, some guys PRETEND they are spanish or even claim to be gitano when they are not. But you have to accept nicknames when they are given.

Ole RRRiiiisharrr...


Hey, so if I could be so bold as to get back to the original topic (it is my thread, after all [:D]), which Sabicas farruca is this? I'm interested because I actually learned mostly Sabicas falsetas in the farruca I just did with my teacher...but when I look on YouTube, etc., there seem to be at least two separate recorded farrucas. Do we kind of just take them together or does anyone have a "gold standard" recording?

Oh, and obviously Sabicas went to Yale. Isn't this common knowledge?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2007 8:02:06)

[Deleted by Admins]



hassurbanipal -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 13:23:38)

Let us simply say,

the music comes from flanders, belgium.
we are flamenco's and we even speak flamenco, yes we do....
so, the spaniards stole our music and we're the only ones who can or may play this music....

so don't care where sabicas is from, he was not allowed to play flamenco...[:)]
even if he studied here, he wasn ot born in belgium with such a name.

(and ps; ricardo, hot jazz is also from belgium, django reinhardt was born here, so even the french are not allowed to play it, [:)]



Arash -> RE: "The farruca by Sabicas is the essence"? (Nov. 5 2007 13:36:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: val

quote:

The farruca by Sabicas ...

Just taking you back to the subject here guys.
Did anyone ever hear the Farruca collaboration with Sabicas and Joe Beck? If so, what do you think? I heard it for the first time at a concert at the Bienal and found it mind-blowing. I had to get it.
Val


Sabicas did this "Sabicas-Rock Encounter" with Joe Beck only to earn money. His Brother Diego told him to make other musics to earn money. But Sabicas didnt like Rock or Jazz and later he said that he felt awful about this production.

---

p.s.
@all.....please stop lying!
Everybody knows that Sabicas was Persian[:D]



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET