tuning new strings - help!!! (Full Version)

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Ailsa -> tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 11:36:14)

OK guys, really basic question from complete noobie noob here. I did try doing a search on the Foro but didn't find anything. So....

Just changed the strings for the first time on a guitar (not my precious fortunately, another one). They sound nice briefly, and then go out of tune again (flat) within like 2 minutes! I've strung them exactly the same as the previous ones - same knot etc. Have I done something wrong, or is this usual?

Thank guys,

A




Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 11:54:55)

Hey Ailsa
Youve done nothing wrong. The strings are made of nylon and (like nylon stockings) are stretchy. It takes at least 6 hours to get the guitar in tune according to the packet and in reality the guitar sounds better next day. I generally change the strings of a guitar in the evening, get it roughly in tune, go to bed and then tune it up the next day to play it.
When you start to play, especially flamenco strumming, that also stretches the strings and tends to throw it out of tune.

A trick is when you put new strings on the guitar, get it roughly in tune and then pull each string up away from the finger board about 3 inches. Yank the string up and down several times to really stretch it. Dont worry, you wont break the string. repeat that for each string and then retune the guitar. Do that a couple more times and the guitar will much more settled.




val -> [Deleted] (Nov. 3 2007 12:14:46)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 16 2010 22:01:20




Ailsa -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 12:20:08)

Thanks both. Well unfortunately I already have changed all six at once!, but like I said, it's not my precious so I've got time to settle it back down.

A[:)]




Ricardo -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 15:33:28)

quote:

A trick is when you put new strings on the guitar, get it roughly in tune and then pull each string up away from the finger board about 3 inches. Yank the string up and down several times to really stretch it. Dont worry, you wont break the string. repeat that for each string and then retune the guitar. Do that a couple more times and the guitar will much more settled


I used to do this too, but an older friend warned me, the bass strings especially, saw into the wood of the tie block when you do that, and he had to get the bridge fixed because he messed up his guitar really bad from doing that.

What I do instead, is change half the strings, trebs or basses, (usually basses more often because they die quick) by tuning them sharp a half step. Then when it settles DOWN, they are pretty close to the pitch I want. I can get strings tuned up in 5 minutes this way.

Trebs take longer to stretch, but again I change those much less often then the basses. Again, I tune just the trebs a half step sharp. To break them in, I play a bit of Gerardo's solea por buleria that uses a similar tunning. I wonder if that is how he came up with that tune, by having the trebs a half step sharpe, stretching them out. The real tune is said to have the 3 basses a half step flat, but hopefully you can see the logic.

But anyway, no more hard tugging.

Ricardo




Tomás Jiménez -> [Deleted] (Nov. 3 2007 17:38:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 13 2008 23:07:47




rickm -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 18:29:49)

start with replacing the bass strings down, it will be easier to tune that way




Doitsujin -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 3 2007 22:13:24)

I try to play the strings as long as possible... When I change.. I do the nasty pulling.. But dont see any gaps till now.. Maybe coz I use the 12 hole system? Well,.. I will keep checking in till now.




Adam -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 4 2007 0:41:04)

Ricardo's advice is spot-on: I had the same issues as you did, my teacher told me to tune all my strings sharp a bit (like Ricardo, I go a half-step--they don't break then, and that seems to be just sharp enough, although it'll take a couple times of this to get the trebles to stay)....total life-saver, the strings are tuned up very quickly that way.

And it's also been said somewhere above (val), NEVER leave the guitar stringless! The guitar gets used to low tension, then suddenly you throw strings back on, and you're doing bad things to the wood. I've heard the bad effects are usually just that for a few hours the guitar doesn't sound as nice, but I don't like taking chances with tension of my guitar's wood!!




HemeolaMan -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 4 2007 3:00:19)

the string pull thing will actually cause your strings to thin out and flatten in places, stretch unevenly.

which, will f*ck up your intonation, screw the life of your strings, and probably make things sound bad too.

as for the stringless thing.... i used to hear that alot from acoustic xsteel stringers, their truss trods would do wicked things to the neck if they didnt have any tension to balance them out.

i'm not sure that people think about the fact that all guitars begin life stringless.... i don't think that its a harmful thing to leave them without tension... but as ramparts says, it may just take a few hours or so to get the wood back in the swing of things.




Haithamflamenco -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 4 2007 11:06:28)

thanks for the information all of u[;)]




HemeolaMan -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 15 2007 4:38:10)

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Cleaning/cleaning02.html

quote:

When you're changing strings, you have an opportunity to wipe down the fingerboard and really clean things up. (By the way, it doesn't hurt any guitar to take all the strings off at the same time.)




HemeolaMan -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 15 2007 6:18:25)

frets.com


quote:

Some people try to pre-stretch the strings in an effort to make them stay in tune better right away. Don't do it. Stretching the strings (beyond normal tuning to pitch) will cause them to develop thin areas, changing the distribution of mass. Uneven strings do not play in tune!

Most of the intonation problems on classical guitars are due to uneven strings. If you have one string that seems suddenly out of tune, it probably is. Cheap strings tend to be uneven at the outset. There are lots of different classical strings on the market, and they all perform differently. It pays to experiment to find the string that sounds best to you.




Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 10:58:11)

Sorry to bounce this thread back up but I have a couple of questions about this string tugging technique.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I used to do this too, but an older friend warned me, the bass strings especially, saw into the wood of the tie block when you do that, and he had to get the bridge fixed because he messed up his guitar really bad from doing that.



I dont understand how this can be true. The tie block normally has a piece of bone or mother of pearl inlay on the top. A nylon string can't saw into that. If someone in the guitars past stupidly fitted steel strings to it (i have seen this done a few times) then that will saw into the tie block, definately! I have seen cheap chinese guitars with plastic tie blocks and old Ramirez with no bone or mother of pearl tie blocks. If an old guitar does not have this then yes i can understand how that could happen but then again an old guitar would originally be fitted with gut strings. The prolonged higher tension of the nylons causes more damage than simply changing strings. This technique should be fine on a modern guitar.



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Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 11:05:56)

I have been doing this for years and have never broken a bridge, a guitar, or a string using this technique. To get the damage you are talking about you need to be yanking it with a crow bar!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

the string pull thing will actually cause your strings to thin out and flatten in places, stretch unevenly.



Cheap strings are sometimes uneven anyway. Paying a couple bucks extra for american brands often helps 'cos they are laser checked for evenness. If you put you left hand (roughly) around the 17th fret, then stretch, move hand down to 12th, then stretch, then down to 7th and stretch, you get an even stretching in the string. I have not had any intonation problems stretching this way.
Here are the strings in situo



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Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 11:11:55)

...and again now while stretching. I cant see how this is harming the tie block. I should also point out that this stretch is up to but not beyond the elastic limit of the nylon. There is a fair amount of play in the string anyway and this stretching to me does not represent much more tension through the string as say half an hour of heavy rasgeo for dancers.



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bahen -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 11:37:09)

So what happens exactly when you leave the guitar stringless, other than "bad things happen to the wood"?




John O. -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 11:40:13)

I go up and down the neck and bend the string with index and thumb without pulling it up. I don't know if it's bad, but have had no problems up to now.

Usually the D string breaks first and it streches the quickest too, so I change that first and play a while till the evening. At bedtime I can put the rest on without using a tuner, tune them up a half step like Ricardo said, and the next day it's all good...




John O. -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 11:48:05)

quote:

So what happens exactly when you leave the guitar stringless, other than "bad things happen to the wood"?


I could imagine the stress reversal causing damage to the wood after a while. You put the strings on and the wood streches adapting to the tension of the strings. When you take the strings off it pushes the wood back together, put new strings on and the wood streches out again. It's like bending a hard piece of plastic and straightening it out again - you get that white crease in there and eventually it'll break.




Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 12:05:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

... bend the string with index and thumb without pulling it up.


How do you mean? like from left to right?




John O. -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 12:14:58)



Like this up and down the neck, only I use the thumb and finger pushing the opposite way.

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Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 12:55:47)

Ok, yes I see now. Technically though, that IS pulling the string up.......
I do a two hand version but i cant do it and take a photo at the same time.

You have 15th and 17th fret markers. Is that a steel string guitar with nylon strings on it?




John O. -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 12:58:43)

Na na, I'm pushing the string down [:D]

I got this pick from the net, that's not me or my guitar.




Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 13:04:26)

[:D][:D] Whatever!!

The point is, have you ever managed to saw the string into the tie block of the guitar or ruin the intonation of the string using this technique?




John O. -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 15:31:23)

That little extra bit of tension compared to what the strings are doing already ... the guitar holds more tension with six strings than any man could create stretching one ... nah, couldn't imagine any real damage - possibly you could over many years slowly but surely pull the tie block forward and loosen the top or crack the wood if you overdo it though. I really only do it with the D string so I can tune.

I couldn't really judge, not only because I'm not a builder, but I've constantly changed guitars since I started playing. I never had a concert guitar longer than 6 years.




guitarbuddha -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 17:20:12)

Something that really works for stabilising tuning fast with new strings is. Put them on and tune them up a minor third (same pitch as capo third fret) leave the. Tune them a few times in the morning and then they will be pretty well behaved after that.

D.




Adam -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 19:02:46)

I do the same thing (as I mentioned somewhere here...) but only up a half step (same as capo to 1st fret). I always assumed the string will break if I tune it TOO high, and it holds tune just fine after that. Have you never had issues tuning it up m3?




guitarbuddha -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 20 2007 19:45:16)

Sorry Ramparts, should have read whole thread.

No, I never have and I use high tension strings all the time. But it was sure unsettling the first few times. Genuinely no problem with it, dont think I'd go up a whole tone and a half with nickel though.

D.




Ricardo -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 21 2007 18:07:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Sorry to bounce this thread back up but I have a couple of questions about this string tugging technique.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I used to do this too, but an older friend warned me, the bass strings especially, saw into the wood of the tie block when you do that, and he had to get the bridge fixed because he messed up his guitar really bad from doing that.



I dont understand how this can be true. The tie block normally has a piece of bone or mother of pearl inlay on the top. A nylon string can't saw into that. If someone in the guitars past stupidly fitted steel strings to it (i have seen this done a few times) then that will saw into the tie block, definately! I have seen cheap chinese guitars with plastic tie blocks and old Ramirez with no bone or mother of pearl tie blocks. If an old guitar does not have this then yes i can understand how that could happen but then again an old guitar would originally be fitted with gut strings. The prolonged higher tension of the nylons causes more damage than simply changing strings. This technique should be fine on a modern guitar.




Ok, talking DECADES of pulling those puppies, (maybe a little faster and harder than YOU do it?) every week. It was an older guy, and he ruined the bridge. Look at the actual angle of the hole where the strings go in. Those were supposed to be round, surely you will notice some wear after many years of this, especially 6th string. Trebels won't really do any damage I guess. Repair is not such a big deal if the tie block top piece is still good. Just fill the holes with rosewood or wood filler, and drill new ones.

In anycase, on the guitar I use most, I won't tug anymore, and it tunes up just fine fast by tunning a 1/2 step sharp as I described, so why take a risk?

Ricardo

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Pimientito -> RE: tuning new strings - help!!! (Nov. 21 2007 20:14:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

In anycase, on the guitar I use most, I won't tug anymore, and it tunes up just fine fast by tunning a 1/2 step sharp as I described, so why take a risk?



Fair enough comment, its just that I had never heard of anyone damaging their guitar that way before and it struck me you would have to be yanking the string with incredible force to wear out the tie block.
Will keep to the overnight half step method from now on
[:)]




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