[Deleted] (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - [Deleted]: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=7739



Message

Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 19 2004 19:33:43)

[Deleted by Admins]



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 19 2004 20:01:12)

quote:

Anyone tried these:
http://www.esflamenco.com/scripts/list/enlist.asp?frmIdList=57


Solo Compas are legendary, though the Soleares one is too slow and the Tangos, too fast. Still worth buying though, maybe Florian has some loops?

quote:

Are there flamenco metronomes out there?


Ron M. will be happy to sell you his software version (Flamenco Master) - comes well recommended.

Compas is everything, learn the chords and stick to them for a while. I speak from frustrated, complex falseta experience which were of no use at all in Jerez[:(]



Billyboy -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 19 2004 20:09:21)

Your listening to the wrong person with PDL, very syncopated, you should listen to more trad stuff, the compas is only one part of it, what chords are played on what beats etc is another. There is an excellent flamenco metronome that is invaluable for anyone learning flamenco, 'Flamenoco Master', its a must have, and as far as I know, the only dedicated computer based flamenco metronome out there, although I have a Whittner, pyramid clockwork metronome that rings a bell on the compas, but it is difficult to fathom, much better using a visual metronome, then when you get more confident, play without looking at the screen.
Dave



Ron.M -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 19 2004 20:17:35)

Nealf,
You're right in saying that adherance to compás is essential if you want to learn "proper" Flamenco.
If you're interested in picking up the flamenco "style" of playing guitar (ie technique) to add to something you already do, then it's not so important.
In Flamenco everything revolves around compás since it is an art form which includes singers, dancers and guitarists and in order for them to get together and "jam", they must all be feeling the same rhythm otherwise it cannot work.
It's difficult to pick up on compás listening to modern virtuoso guitarists as they will generally bend and heavily syncopate the rhythm and play around with the general form of the particular "palo" or style.
Older "solo" guitarists say like Sabicas will tend to stick to something more immediately understandable, but even there some parts will not quite make sense.
Better listening to some earlier traditional style recordings which include singer, dancer and guitar. There you should find the compás to be very clear.
Even in some earlier "modern" style CD's of say Paco de Lucia with El Camaron de la Isla you'll find will have very "followable" compás.
The "Solo Compás" series is very good as is the "Cristina Hoyos" series, but they are very "dry", aimed, I think for student dancers wishing to practise on their own.
Nevertheless, if you can afford to buy them then do so as they are excellent.

As for a metronome, there are a few Metronomes both software and hardware versions available which are excellent for Flamenco studies.
The ones which come to mind are Mundo Beat (available in software form or as an actual physical electronic metronome), the Graf-Martinez software metronome, and the Flamenco Master software metronome.
There are also a couple of "free" metronomes I've come across which seem to work in Quicktime or something and on my computer seem to have a randomly variable time between beats which seems to defeat the purpose of having a metronome IMO. [:D]

cheers

Ron



Patrick -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 19 2004 22:19:10)

Neal,

Ron's being modest. Just get his Flamenco Master software and get it over with. If you want a hardware version, Mundo Beat is the way to go (I use it).

Also, I highly recommend the CD/Book "Understanding Flamenco" by Faustino Nunez. It's available from Flamenco World and Flamenco Connection. The book is close to worthless, but the CD that comes with it is a must have for learning compas on your own.

As mentioned, I would focus on the older recordings for now.

One other thing. Instead of the more traditional way of counting Solea (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2), you might try counting this way (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2) (accents in bold).

Pat



Florian -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 20 2004 0:47:18)

Wait a second !! did I hear you guys say that Ron.M is the Flamenco Master creator ?? are you serious ?
Greate work Ron ! YOURE FAMOUS ![:)]
IT's greate software not only because it keeps compas but because you can see at what count you are with it at all times.
Are you working on any updates for it or anything else like this ?

Out of all metronomes i have seen Flamenco Master is the most usefull for flamenco.



Florian -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 20 2004 1:13:11)

quote:

maybe Florian has some loops?


Yes i have some slower tangos loops if anyone would like some



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 20 2004 9:34:03)

He's just modest[:D]



Jon Boyes -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 20 2004 10:01:50)

Well ditto what all the guys said...

Trying to fathom compas from modern stuff like PDL is next to impossible. Even more exeprienced flamenco fans occasionally have trouble spotting the palo, let alone figuring out what he's doing with the compas![:D]

I learned a lot about basic compas from JuanMartins original book El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra.., but if I have one criticism its a little 'falseta focussed'. The book (well the CD..) mentioned by Patrick is a great little reference for the compas of the main palos, the only trouble is there's no tab in the book for the cool rhythms the guitarist plays, so you'll need a good ear to be able to work out what he's doing and play along.

Flamenco master metronome is excellent, I was completely stuffed with bulerias until I bought this off Ron. Its a bargain, by it! Just sitting there jamming out the chords and trying out rhythm variations for a few weeks worked wonders for me, suddenly it slotted into place.

Last bit not least, the best option of all is a teacher, but I realise they are hard to come by!

I must get some of these Solo compas CDs.

Jon



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 21 2004 0:57:28)

[Deleted by Admins]



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 21 2004 1:10:10)

quote:

I guess my problem right now is I need to first try an dunderstand the compas and be able to clap it out ....


With you on that. I just picked up La percusión en el flamenco by Nan Mercader whilst in Cadiz.

It is a palmas and cajone instruction book and there is a video to go with it. It scores the basic palmas for all the major palos and variations.

I could only find the video on http://www.flamenco-world.com but it looks pretty good.



Kate -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 23 2004 11:47:06)

quote:

I just picked up La percusión en el flamenco by Nan Mercader whilst in Cadiz.

It is a palmas and cajone instruction book and there is a video to go with it. It scores the basic palmas for all the major palos and variations.

I could only find the video on http://www.flamenco-world.com but it looks pretty good.



Nan Mercedor is very repected here as a teaher and a player. I heard really good things about this course. Nan was also very complimentry about the Taller de Compás album. Nice man.

Kate



Escribano -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Mar. 23 2004 12:33:42)

quote:

Nan Mercedor is very repected here as a teacher and a player


Cool, send him my regards and thank him for writing the book.



gk -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 15:01:41)

quote:

Also, I highly recommend the CD/Book "Understanding Flamenco" by Faustino Nunez. It's available from Flamenco World and Flamenco Connection. The book is close to worthless, but the CD that comes with it is a must have for learning compas on your own.


I know this thread is old but I want to express my deep gratitude for this reference, and others.

I have been a flamenco student since 1985, with Paco Pena, in Cordoba.

One thing that I have been cursed by was that, despite my suggestion that maybe "twelve" could be called "one", Paco Pena was very insistent that "twelve" is "twelve", not "one", in Bulerias.

This comment, by my guru, at the time, has always haunted, and discouraged me, until recently.

A few decades have now passed, since 1985, and I find, finally some support for my view, thanks to this forum, and a few noted educators:

+ Faustino Núñez - Understanding Flamenco (2003)
+ Nan Mercader - La Percusión En El Flamenco (2000)
+ Gerhard Graf-Martinez - Flamenco Guitar Method, Vol 2 (2004)
- among others.

I don't fault Paco Peno, entirely, for discouraging me.
In hindsight, it seems to be a problem of language.

To me (and apparently also to Faustino, Nan and Gerhard), "one" means the start of the compas.

To Paco, apparently, "one" meant a position in the "flamenco clock" order of accents: in other words Paco could not agree to simply rename beat "twelve" as "one", despite the fact that it is the beginning of the bulerias compas - to Paco, in hindsight, I figure, he must have been thinking of the order of accents: you cannot simply call beat twelve "beat one" because that would (wrongly) imply that it is not accented, and that you have shifted all of the accents in the cycle.

I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

For decades, I have been trying to interpret Paco Pena's comments and assumed that the whole point was that "one" in Soleares is still the "one", in Bulerias, but that it is the un-accented "upbeat" and not the accented "downbeat" (strong beat).

This was a very hard pill to swallow since I can't help but regard a "strong" beat as a "downbeat", and, indeed, Faustino, Nan and Gerhard seem to agree.

Thanks to this forum, I have read what Faustino has to say, which reconciles the subject:

It makes sense to call beat "twelve" in Bulerias "beat one" since:
+ It is the beginning of the compas
+ It is accented

You can also understand Soleares, in the same context, if you like, but the difference is that, in Soleares, beat "twelve" is silent (unaccented).
Wow. This reveleation was a blockbuster to me. Surprised that I never heard it before.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 15:44:14)

It took you 30 years to figure that out? (Not trying to be funny here)

I think that all theoreticall misconceptions happen when you try to separate them from a context. That's also the reason I encourage people to have more than one theoreticall point of view for each musical situation.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 18:07:38)

Your way of looking at it would give you huge problems in the world of accompaniment. Especially dance where you commonly start with solea or alegrias and end up in bulerias.......



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 18:39:01)

quote:

To Paco, apparently, "one" meant a position in the "flamenco clock" order of accents: in other words Paco could not agree to simply rename beat "twelve" as "one", despite the fact that it is the beginning of the bulerias compas


What Leñador said. Paco was exactly right: when you rename"12" to "1", you set one foot firmly on the road to lunacy — as you’ve found out the hard way.

Because the compás is (conceptually, anyway) invariant; where you actually start playing (or singing) could be anywhere, and not infrequently is — some bulerías falsetas start on beat 9½, for instance.

Know the the fandango «Ni que me manden a mí» on Arte y majestad? The introduction to that starts on 5.

And so on.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 20:03:35)

Don't remember where but I've also seen it presented as 2 Big beats and 3 small beats:

One (3) Two (3) Three (2) Four (2) Five(2)



This is helpful because it's dead simple, sepecially if you want to ask a drummer to play along with you. But yeah, in a flamenco context it's unnecessary confusion.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 20:57:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

To Paco, apparently, "one" meant a position in the "flamenco clock" order of accents: in other words Paco could not agree to simply rename beat "twelve" as "one", despite the fact that it is the beginning of the bulerias compas


What Leñador said. Paco was exactly right: when you rename"12" to "1", you set one foot firmly on the road to lunacy — as you’ve found out the hard way.

Because the compás is (conceptually, anyway) invariant; where you actually start playing (or singing) could be anywhere, and not infrequently is — some bulerías falsetas start on beat 9½, for instance.

Know the the fandango «Ni que me manden a mí» on Arte y majestad? The introduction to that starts on 5.

And so on.


Well we have discussed this topic much in the past. Dancers are NOT MUSICIANS...it becomes important to understand their language in order to communicate...the 12 count thing or counting to 8 in tangos or farruca, are NOT musical equivalants to meter. They are the sort of Rosetta stone by which communication between movement and sound becomes possible. The fact that two forms such as solea and buleria can be "bridged" in a dance, thanks to the dancer count system, does not imply that compas of the two forms is invarient. Compas varies greatly, EVEN WITH IN ONE FORM...

The way I see it is simple... regardless if the count is the same, when the FOOT TAP changes, the meter is also changing, like it or not. A transcriber can opt to notate different ways, but in the end the music need not be represented that way according to the traditional discipline anyway. But if one were to explore different methods, and that person had decent background in complex meters and such, there will exist a BEST way to do it. It would mean throwing away the attempt to correlate the count of the dancer to the meter on the staff, and in fact one might find what is counted in class as "12" or "6" is, on paper, best expressed as a clear "1", or down beat.

Here is an example...many bulerias are counted by dancers like this:
...1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10,un do...
but the appropriate way to notate those counts on music paper, in 3/4, with proper feeing is
(rest) & 2 & 3 & /1 & 2 & 3 & /1...

Eighth notes are getting the count, obviously. With in the frame work of feeling the meter, many different accent combinations can be expressed. Some passages or phrases of music might be better expressed in 6/8 meter, where the 8th note=8th note value has to be expressed above the meter change...but those passages are comparatively more rare in the big picture of buleria throughout history (all one needs to do is a take a large sampling of foot taps of players and singers to see this).

What we see more often IN PRACTICE, is transcribing bulerias AS IF IT IS A FAST SOLEA..and this is misspresenting the fundamental feeling behind the rhythm despite being mathematically "correct" and correlating to dancer's counting. Later this is misleadingly taught to beginners as the BASIS of the rhythmic feeling which leads to confusion when the first "half compas" situation is encountered.

Ricardo



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:16:18)

I see what you're saying, but isn't it kind of a matter of knowing the "lingo" of the trade? You need to be able to communicate with the other disciplines no matter what you want to call it to yourself no??



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:21:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

I see what you're saying, but isn't it kind of a matter of knowing the "lingo" of the trade? You need to be able to communicate with the other disciplines no matter what you want to call it to yourself no??



No, there is no need to be able to communicate with others outside of flamenco world...unless you specifically WANT to for a special fusion or whatever...in which case it probably does no damn good to teach the counting system of dancers/accompanying guitarist or cajon players, to the "other discipline" individuals. Better to just jam and get the feeling going, or, do as I described above...use correct meters and transcriptions.

Now a professional pan flute players wants in on the dancer action, then he or she will have to learn the stupid insider lingo. [8|]

Unless you worded your statement baddly and intended to say you can do away with proper meter and transcription, if you are gonna only play with flamencos...then YES learn to do what the flamencos need you to do. I will say that in Spain, many flamencos count their foot tap as "uno" to start with...and that would be 12 in dance class...so...go figure.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:28:55)

Pan flute! Lolol no no I mean a guitarist being able to communicate with a dancer situation. As a guitarist you kind of need to know how the other disciplines think about the compas to communicate effectively. You can't show up at a dance class talking about "on the second beat of the third bar.....". Am I making sense?



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:42:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

Pan flute! Lolol no no I mean a guitarist being able to communicate with a dancer situation. As a guitarist you kind of need to know how the other disciplines think about the compas to communicate effectively. You can't show up at a dance class talking about "on the second beat of the third bar.....". Am I making sense?


So by "other disciplines" you mean....DANCERS ONLY. [:D] I will tell you you don't need that counting crap for singers that's for sure.

Anyway, I have been pointing out all along that it is only for the SPECIAL case of dancers in dance class (actual pro performers don't count anythig either in practice)...and forcing the issue on beginners in books and such is misleading without first letting them know that they are being PRIMED for this special dance class situation. For total beginners it's just fine...but notation score should not be used then. Once you introduce a score you are coming from a DIFFERENT MUSIC DISCIPLINE than FLAMENCO...which is what I have been saying, it's like a bad google translation, missing the whole point, without the proper rosetta stone.



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:56:09)

Gotcha gotcha gotcha.
Makes me wonder how we got to this point.....All the pro GUITARISTS I know don't count but every book on "beginners flamenco guitar" is very adamant on counting and even Paco Pena appears to be pretty insistent on people knowing the counts.......



Dudnote -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:57:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

Don't remember where but I've also seen it presented as 2 Big beats and 3 small beats:

One (3) Two (3) Three (2) Four (2) Five(2)



This is helpful because it's dead simple, sepecially if you want to ask a drummer to play along with you. But yeah, in a flamenco context it's unnecessary confusion.

To just think of the 5 accents is more common for palos of the seguiryas family
1x2x3xx4xx5x



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 21:59:58)

quote:

I mean a guitarist being able to communicate with a dancer situation


What?!? She dumped you??















[sm=lol.gif]



Leñador -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 22:02:13)

quote:

What?!? She dumped you??

No jodas guey! She could never leave me, I'm f&*(ing adorable! [:D]



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 22:03:42)

quote:

To just think of the 5 accents is more common for palos of the seguiryas family
1x2x3xx4xx5x


Sure. But if you think about it (and forget about flamenco for a second), it's easier to get someone grooving with 1xx2xx3x4x5x than telling them about beginning at 12 and "here's a nice little watch to help you with the accents". [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 22:18:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins

quote:

To just think of the 5 accents is more common for palos of the seguiryas family
1x2x3xx4xx5x


Sure. But if you think about it (and forget about flamenco for a second), it's easier to get someone grooving with 1xx2xx3x4x5x than telling them about beginning at 12 and "here's a nice little watch to help you with the accents". [:D]


Problem is with your unique method (for buleria), is you don't show that 1 and 3 carry equal weight. Better to say 1xx2xx,1x2x3x...and explain either pattern is fine to repeat or switch out or overlap, omit or add, and it's all good.



Sr. Martins -> RE: Flamenco Compas help needed (Apr. 16 2015 22:22:42)

quote:

Problem is with your unique method, is you don't show that 1 and 3 carry equal weight. Better to say 1xx2xx,1x2x3x...and explain either pattern is fine to reapeat or switch out or overlap, omit or add, and it's all good.


Jeez.. police.. [:D]

I don't remember if it was numbered like that, I just know there were 5 beats, two "big" and three "short", that's all I was trying to pass on without getting too nerdy or judgy.


Peace hugs


edit:

On a nerdy note and by my judgement, this is REALLY important to anyone:

quote:

...and explain either pattern is fine to repeat or switch out or overlap, omit or add, and it's all good.


Doesn't matter if it's 12, 1, or whatever... getting a feel for how those chunks are often used and also superimposed is, on my "judgy", one of the big "Ahhh!!!" moments one can have.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET