RE: Tauromagia vid? (Full Version)

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devilhand -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 18:17:38)

quote:

I’m still waiting for someone to explain how flamenco and bullfighting are so inextricably linked.

They can't answer because there's no inextricable bond between the two.



devilhand -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 18:29:39)

quote:

NBA, NFL, and MLB are all closely linked for a kid living in poverty who also happens to be a great athlete. They all represent the possibility of a better life.

Bullfighting is just another act of entertaining for people in Andalusia/Spain. Americans don't know football is a big thing in Spain and Europe. Bigger than bullfighting. FC Cadiz is now in Primera division. FC Sevilla is one of the big clubs in Spain. Today they have a home game against BVB in the round of 16 champions league. They're crazy about football. Estadio Ramón Sánchez-Pizjuán is maybe the second heated stadium in Europe after Anfield in Liverpool.

As for your teacher that was only his own opinion because he must have been so passionate about bullfighting. One can't go from the particular to the general. M. Sanlucar's Tauromagia is an another example. Maybe you guys have to express it differently. Bullfighting being closely bonded or linked to flamencio is an over-exaggeration.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 17 2021 18:30:43)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:00:55



BarkellWH -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 18:47:08)

quote:

So without the influence of the corrida, there wouldn't be any themes of life, death, tragedy or courage in flamenco? Come on, are you serious? The relation is one of correlation not causation.


Perhaps a primer on reading comprehension is in order. I state clearly in my post, "While I don't think there is a "causal" relationship between the corrida and flamenco...." Nevertheless, within the context of Andalusia, the themes I mentioned in the corrida have clearly influenced them in flamenco. I suggest you talk to Spaniards who have lived in Andalusia. You might widen your horizons a bit.

That those themes may be present in the art and music of other cultures does not mean that they were developed independently in flamenco without the influence of the corrida. You are creating a red herring when you state, "So without the influence of the corrida, there wouldn't be any themes of life, death, tragedy, or courage in flamenco?" I never said that, and you know it. I stated flamenco has been influenced by the corrida, and it is those themes that provide the connection between the two.

You simply don't want to acknowledge opinions and explanations with which you disagree.

Bill



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 17 2021 19:30:32)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:00:48



chester -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 19:59:13)

I'm not sure if this counts as "inextricably linked" but back in the late 1840s the acclaimed tocàor Ernesto de la Molina participated in the neighborhood córrida's "open mike night" and got hit by a törò.

The impact damaged his left hand and affected his ability to properly bar chords.

After a few months of soul searching he realized that if he left some strings open while fretting chords he was able to play without pain again. At first the càntàors winced at the strange harmonies produced by de la Molina's unorthodox technique, but they realized that if they include some guttural screaming and slight pitch bends the cánté fit in quite well with this new style of toqué.

I went down a deep rabbit hole and finally found a recording of flamenco prior to this unfortunate (or fortunate?) mishap: https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ
While people are free to come to their own conclusion, I'm sure you'll find the differences striking.



kitarist -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 20:18:40)

quote:

Saying flamenco has been influenced by the corrida is different from saying they are inextricably linked, which is the claim I’m contesting.


No it is not; that claim was made by you (go ahead, check; I'll wait). No one claimed the two were inextricably linked before you introduced that wording; just "closely bonded" (Ricardo) or Bill's "each has been influenced by the other" - which is not at all the same thing, hence you had to distort what was actually claimed in order to create a good enough strawman argument to "still [be] waiting for someone to explain" yet magnanimously keep an open mind about. Ah, such generosity of spirit on your part in this gentlemanly discussion.

And if you can just misrepresent what was said, just like that, why would people take you as arguing carefully in good faith and thus keep spending time engaging you?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 17 2021 20:31:45)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:00:41



kitarist -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 20:39:37)

Also Mark introduced a whole book, written by an academic/professor, on the subject of the close links between flamenco dancing and the kinetic spectacle of bullfighting:

From its intro:

"I think of flamenco and bullfighting as twins, developing together embryonically, and continuing to develop naturally side by side in their home culture over a period of centuries, first in informal and later in more formal, formulated, and even formulaic ways. Whatever the exact history of their emergence may be, most certainly over many centuries of development, it was in human flesh, action, and feeling that they maintained their twinship before finally emerging around the eighteenth century as public ritual and performance. And one result of their shared developmental history is that any pedagogical or aesthetic discourse focused on either flamenco or bullfighting is likely to express awareness of the significant links between the two cultural practices."

There are 300+ pages examining this in detail, with references. Maybe go read it instead of ignoring what is presented to you that you don't like, open-minded fella; or is flamenco dance not sufficiently flamenco to register as evidence, in your generous open-minded view?

It is OK to dismiss this or anything else, of course - as is ok to simply have a (wrong) opinion about anything; just don't pretend your position is somehow objective and based on the available evidence.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 17 2021 20:51:58)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:00:32



kitarist -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 21:00:00)

quote:

The desperation to “prove me wrong”


No, you haven't even been right or wrong yet - you committed a much graver sin - that of logical fallacy: you misrepresented what others said in an attempt to paint them into a corner and also ignored evidence when presented to you.



Escribano -> RE: Tauromagia vid? (Feb. 17 2021 21:00:41)

I love flamenco and hate bullfighting. I lived in Andalucía. There is, or least was, a correlation. Maybe not a bond. No-one seems to be saying that they are inextricable but I went to many a flamenco fiesta in a plaza del toro. Many peñas had signs of such support.

Whilst Anders was making my guitar, we could hear a Saturday night corrida on the tv next door. Neither he nor I, were fans.

I adore animals. I attach a photo of the little ratonero bodeguero I rescued from Granada and the "lupo" appennino who is a constant visitor to our house, here in Italy. Both had been abused and neglected.

Enough said on this one. It's locked.



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