Question about Paco de Lucia (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Question about Paco de Lucia: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=74579



Message

Isaac -> Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 22 2007 4:15:31)

Hi Folks,

I think we can all pretty much agree that Paco has gone through a few stages in his artistic development. My question is: Has anyone ever classified these? And if not, I'm curious as to how would you classify them?



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 22 2007 19:41:09)

Good question. Which recordings of Paco do you own? The reason I ask is because a lot of flamenco guitar aficionados consider each successive studio solo album of Paco, a "revolution" or step up the evolutionary ladder. Of course on each album perhaps not EVERY form evolved forward, but at least a few forms are taken in a new direction. So starting with his first record "la fabulosa" you could go one album at a time and call it a "new epoc".

But if you want to just generalize based on his best overall recordings, I guess you could say "Fantasia Flamenca" is traditional with perfect technique. "Fuente y Caudal" is the middle period, Paco the composer, perhaps the majority of Paco fans like this the best. "Almoraima" would be the start of "modern flamenco" with extra elements creeping in and "Siroco" being the model for modern flamenco, not a lot has changed since then interms of his style.

But to take only these albums as a base, you are missing out on little important steps along the way. For me, "Duende flamenco..." is overlooked by a lot of aficionados because they beefed it up with some small orchestral backing on a few tracks. But for me that was when Paco started to really come into his own as a composer. Rondeña and Buleria for example have never been better. And still in Concert today Paco plays bits from that Rondeña despite all the evolution since then. Also for me, at least looking at bulerias say, the modern style really got solidified on "Solo Quiero Caminar" since he still plays much from that record in concerts today, mixed with recent material it all blends together with no variations, regarding dynamics, rasgueados, harmonic movements etc.



Florian -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 22 2007 19:50:28)

Wow pretty nicely put ricardo, i agree with everything, i mean i didnt exactly stop to think about it and i am not a huge Paco expert but when i see it written down it kind of make sense.

I do remember hearing Sirroco and thinking , wow the sound, its so modern, and then i was told when it was recorded i was pretty surprised.

theres only a handfull of the very very top musiceans/etertainers that do this, compleatly reinvent themselfs each album. first of the few ones that come to mind, Paco, to a certain extent Vicente but not as much his sound and style is too trademark to to be completly different on each album, Maddona, M. Jackson, i am sure theres more but this are the ones that come to mind for some reason.

Also Maddona changes her hair style every album (Paco could learn [;)] hes done the bold look to death if Nicolas Cage can wear a wig I am sure so can Paco or atlist die his hair black or something different ) and M.Jakson changes his hair and parts of his face [8|]

Pacos last Album is also very very different to anything hes done before, i think I for one i am still trying to digest and understand that one, i mean i like it but is just so different it takes me a while to get used to it.

theres some tracks i like very much some i am still trying to decide. what do you guys think of it ? i am not sure how it was recived by the majority of the Paco lovers here or in Spain ?

Another thing that amazes me about Paco is how many albums hes put out and how consitant hes been, each album has atlist 3 or 4 brilliant tracks that stand the test of time.



XXX -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 22 2007 20:43:12)

Ricardo agreed, but Cositas is very different from everything. At least here is a break, a new epoc if you want. He completely left the road of two or four chords, which still seems to attract some people. Isnt La Tumbona mainly in phyrygian chords everything? Well in the new things i cant see that. Its much less resolution in phrygian (i guess).



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 23 2007 7:01:53)

quote:

i am not sure how it was recived by the majority of the Paco lovers here or in Spain ?


Not unlike the Beatles, you have a guy that has recorded a lot, and now is not out to prove anything about guitar playing, but be a bit artistic. I felt the same about Zyrab. A mix of stuff, and some extras thrown in because there was not a complete concept or enough traditional forms that he considered "new" and forward moving.

I mean with Cositas you have obvious use of studio editing technique vs simply playing a guitar solo. On Luzia you have some real guitar playing by itself. The idea of accompanying Camaron with salvaged tracks is not really "flamenco", but very beautiful and artistic in its own special way. I felt the only new "form" on here was Tientos, but there was not whole lot of music to devour or study like on Luzia you had all new forms of solea, siguiriyas, Rondeña, etc. I personally love the first bulerias the best on the album and the guitar duet that has a great south american feel, but neither one to me is a move forward from his previous work. Just more good stuff. He does some cool remates in Volar that you don't normally see from him, very baile ish, but they really jump out at you from what is happening with the falsetas.

quote:

Isnt La Tumbona mainly in phyrygian chords everything? Well in the new things i cant see that. Its much less resolution in phrygian (i guess).


I don't mean you can take newest falsetas and stick them into "La tumbona", but rather, you can play La tumbona material mixed with Paco's latest, and it blends nicely. Where as if he played falsetas and compas strumming rasgueados etc from the era of Fantasia or Fuente, it would really jump out at you as old school. Hope that makes sense?

Ricardo



Isaac -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 23 2007 15:37:43)

Ricardo:
Thanks for the reply! I guess the reason I ask is because I wanted to have a good grip on his development over the years so I can teach it and didn't want to make any wrong assumptions. I figured a place like this woud be a good place to ask.
I teach a guitar history course at A&M and I cover flamenco guitar and its influence on class. guitar technique and music. Initially, I had classified Paco's development into three main phases: Traditional, experimental and, this may sound a bit weird but, I called his last stage "melodic" -- I looked at Luzia and Cositas and noticed that Paco is as you say "not out to prove anything anymore" and has a strong emphasis on melodic beauty. You get a hint of this new style in Zyriab with Melodia de Amor brought to light with Luzia and its culmination in Cositas - I was totally blown away with Cositas because I was listening to it so intensely the first time I heard it and realized that the man had completely reinvented himself. No scales, no flash just beautiful melodies everywhere. Incredible really.
Well, that's just my own ideas of course but it was refreshing to see that they are somewhat close to yours. I disagree with you though on him being in a time warp since Sirocco. I definitely think that Sirocco is a big landmark but Luzia and Cositas sound totally different than Sirocco and than each other. So, I think there is a definite break...? I'm a total Paco geek and have been for years - I own ALL of Paco's Albums through the years and even the compilation discs that repeat the same stuff that I already have - So, I guess you can say I'm a bit of a FAN. [8D]



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 23 2007 17:24:36)

quote:

I disagree with you though on him being in a time warp since Sirocco. I definitely think that Sirocco is a big landmark but Luzia and Cositas sound totally different than Sirocco and than each other. So, I think there is a definite break...?


Well like I said EACH ALBUM was a revolution, so you are right. I was generalizing by category. He is modern flamenco player now, and by the time of Siroco, ALL the forms were modernized (except maybe siguiriyas?). So while Luzia is definately different and forward moving, it is still "modern flamenco" like Siroco. Live concerts mixed material of both albums quite convincingly to an audience not falmiliar with specific falsetas. It all sounds "Modern" to most aficionados. Also on Luzia, I consider the Alegrias just an extension of "La Barrosa" and infact they fit together very nicely live. That way it is hard to draw clear lines. I always felt Paco was "melodic" although, I see what you mean about him not just expressing speedy techniques in his compositions.

On a side note, when the new music from Luzia came out in concert 97, before the album release, I remember it clearly and I was really thrown off because it was all unfamiliar. And no Picados. I missed La Barrosa, etc. But in alegrias he launched into a crazy 2 compas picado, as if to get it out of his system or to wake up the audience or please the fans or whatever. Well he missed a few notes. The guys in the band laughed and he was pissed. Heard the same happened in another city. The next time I saw Paco he has trashed that long picado. I am glad actually he is mixing La Barrosa back into his concerts.

Ricardo



Filip -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Sep. 25 2007 23:42:46)

In a book that comes with Paco's integral, tree revolutions are mentioned:
1) La Fabulosa Guitarra...
2) work with Meola and John
3)Siroco.
Those are the periods that can be classified somehow (by the book)

Of course, every Paco's album is very much different than all the others, and represent one new revolution! And Ricardo said all the point very nice!

Now, I remember when "Cositas Buenas" came up! I had read some critics before heard it (during the circumstances), and the critics were bad! And after hearing it I didn't like the most of the pieces very much! But those songs are hard to understand! After going deep into it, I consider it masterpiece! Cositas Buenas is beautiful tangos, Antonia is perhaps the most difficult piece for playing and also wonderful (letras are great), and El Tesorillio is masterpiece!



Filip -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Nov. 26 2020 13:51:43)

quote:

But in alegrias he launched into a crazy 2 compas picado, as if to get it out of his system or to wake up the audience or please the fans or whatever. Well he missed a few notes. The guys in the band laughed and he was pissed. Heard the same happened in another city.

Is there a video of that picado?



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Nov. 26 2020 17:23:11)

quote:

I think we can all pretty much agree that Paco has gone through a few stages in his artistic development. My question is: Has anyone ever classified these?


Yes: I did it in 2009 [:D]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1V2DLHA0NZIB0/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00005Q30W



kitarist -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Nov. 26 2020 17:39:04)

quote:

Yes: I did it in 2009


Really enjoyed reading it, Paul!

Also, I am flagging 'aleatoric' for addition to my lexicon [:)][:)]

P.S. Wow, look at that post count. I wonder what kind of blanca Simon will send me when I pass 1000. That's what you guys got, right? [;)]



devilhand -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Nov. 26 2020 21:04:40)

quote:

P.S. Wow, look at that post count. I wonder what kind of blanca Simon will send me when I pass 1000. That's what you guys got, right?

Don't try to copy my post. I did post a similar comment just after I reached my 500th post. But a clever way to post just before 1000 though. Btw, I won't reveal what I got.

quote:

@admins
I just reached 500 posts. Where's my Foroflamenco Blanca? Ricardo Marlow Signature Model would be awesome



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Paco de Lucia (Nov. 27 2020 6:27:38)

quote:

Is there a video of that picado?


It would be 1997-98 tour with duquende singing only. Never saw any footage.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET