5/16 (Full Version)

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guitarbuddha -> 5/16 (Sep. 3 2007 14:39:25)

Hi there everyone. I have recentlly been fascinated by quintuplets and would really like something funky to work on which has some syncopation and consistant use of groups of five for long sections. I dont mean a tremelo piece per se but something that has mixed groupings ( I am comfortable with 5=2+3 - the first that I learned- and am becoming more comfortable with 5=1+2+2 -flamenco tremolo- but it would be really nice to explore some variations of proven musicality with solid melody and form berfor I try and reinvent the wheel )

The only piece which I have ever played which was mostly in fives was by leo Brower and although I really liked it the fives were mostly moto perpetuo with free time interludes. I want something FUNKY to get my teeth into.

Anyone have any ideas ? If not for guitar then some drum music would suit fine too.

All advice appreciated [8|]

D.




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 14:07:08)

Come on, someone must have some advice for quintuplets. Soemthing to listen to, something to play, something to read....anything. All I know is El Decamaron Negra and five stroke tremelo, there must be some more out there, stop holding out on me guys.

D.




koella -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 14:26:56)

"take five"from Davy Brubeck ?
Sorry couldn't help it.[:D]




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 14:40:46)

You could listen to some Bulgarian (or Macedonian) folk dances. There's a dance in 5 (usualy 2+3) called paidushko.
Also any South Indian classical pieces in khanda chapu tala.
(No, sorry, I don't have specific discography at hand).




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guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 21:53:31)

Thanks guys, I appreciate your efforts. Basically I want to feel fives the way that I feel threes and fours with control over the accentuation and phrasing and syncopation possibilities. I've been working on it but above a certain speed it turns to mush. I'll keep working on it though.

I will try and check out the indian stuff thanks Estevan. I thinks those bulgarian things are the type of thing that Tim Sparks does pastiches of. They are more in 5/8 or 5/4, now I am not being aukward there it is just that say at tempos of 100 or so the quintuplest take up one beat so it is not like a fast beat and a slow beat or vice versa ( ie 2+3 an 3+2 ). Instead it would have the same rhythm and pace as a flamenco tremolo but frequent movement within the beat and syncopation all in strict time. Maybe it doesn't exist [:o]

The Leo Brower piece El Decamaron Negro is the closest thing that I have found to what I want but it has mostly the standar 2+2+1 that drummers use to accent fives but I want something that has variation in accent and some syncopations. Some african drum music would be great but I dont know enough about it or what a 5/16 based rhythmic piece could be called.

D.




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 22:14:12)

quote:

I thinks those bulgarian things......... are more in 5/8 or 5/4, ............ at tempos of 100 or so the quintuplest take up one beat so it is not like a fast beat and a slow beat or vice versa ( ie 2+3 an 3+2 ).

- or "a short beat and a long beat"; actually it definitely is, because the dance steps follow these divisions (step-hop, step-stamp...) The beats can be very fast!

There might be some guitar pieces by Dusan Bogdanovic that would interest you; I don't really know his stuff, but I do know that he's done some compositions based on African as well as Balkan rhythms.
[8|]




Ricardo -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 4 2007 22:57:11)

The picados Romerito mentioned are good, especially Jesus because he is real tight and clean.

Shakti drummers Zakir Hussein and Vikku always do cool 5's, but just accented groups of 16ths usually. dadi gidi gum, dadi gidi gum, etc.

But if all you want is to work on rhythm, pick a basic drum rudiments book in any music store, and you will find cool 5 patterns. You need to apply the sticking patterns to some sort of technique of strumming, picado, or note playing.

Ricardo




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 1:24:09)

Hi Ricardo, that's exactly what I have been doing. I'll keep on going, but I would really like a funky melody in five to get my teeth into.

Estevan I am looking at phrasing that equals 1+2+2. So at a crotchet =100 that would be five hundred bpm for the short beat at the start. I just cant tap my foot that fast so I tend to think of it as a phrasing subdivision within one beat. My warm congratulations if you feel comfortable doing this though[:D].

Thanks again all, PS (and I know I am showing my ignorance again) the names of a few example pieces for Jesus de Rosario -Sabicas doesn't do much for me when he plays fast- and the balkan stuff would be great.

D.




Ricardo -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 12:45:06)

I checked out the Sabicas lick. It appears he is feeling groups of 6, or triplets maybe, but the way the math works out the transcriber used 5's and it worked in compas. I am talking about the Solea on Flamenco Puro, near the end.

Jesus, I think it was a bulerias that I heard that, 5's against what should be groups of 4 or 6 at 128+- bpm. Maybe I saw a transcript at modern toque of Alegrias or something also with tight 5's. The guy is really fast, but that would be a good exercise for sure.

1+2+2 is the same as 2+3, just you feel the 3 first. Dumdadigidi, dumdadigidi, etc.

Ricardo




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 13:45:36)

Yeah I think I know the kind of thing with. There is a run in consistant quintuplets in the Sevillanas in Fauchers Nunez book that I could work on but none of these things fit the bill. I have heard Sabicas playing in fives on Escudero's Farruca and although Sabicas plays the whole piece beautifully they don't sound too rhythmical to me.

If anyone has seen El Decamaron Negro then they will know what I mean clearly. I am looking for holes to not just moto perpetuo.

I made the distinction between 3+2 and 1+2+2 for a reason. For tremolo I am trying to hear the downbeat and then four even semiquavers but with a clear accent on the first of the four semis, this is to help improve my attack and control of tremolo and to help me to clearly articulate and keep my LH/RH together when there is movement within a beat in the melody. If I think 3+2 then although it will be easier to keep clear in my mind I am liable to lose the control of the attack of the first i finger note. I want to get a bright attack but not to tie up my hand and get out of sync with too much heaviness. I have been working on a bank of excercise to get this into my subconscious.

I need to make a playalong with fast fives ( I have devised a bell pattern in imitation of the cascada but taking four groups of five to repeat and being very assymetrical but favouring the second and fourth quavers slightly ) but my windows vista computer is S'### nothing works, it wont record at a reasonable level and I get so enraged when I try and make it do anything useful (like recognise that I have a midi guitar plugged in, get sibelius to run without crashing etc ) that it ruins my whole day and that of anyone with the misforrtune to talk to me.

Well, if that made any sense to anyone, congratulations. I am still trying to see if it makes sense to me. I think i will just have to try and make a reasonably musical etude out of my excercises.

D.




Ricardo -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 14:09:59)

quote:

For tremolo I am trying to hear the downbeat and then four even semiquavers but with a clear accent on the first of the four semis, this is to help improve my attack and control of tremolo


Hmm, most of my students actually have a problem with being too heavy or accenting always that first i finger. I try to teach tremolo now a days like iamiP, iamiP, where its is like 1e&ah 2, 3e&ah4, etc depending on the number of bass notes. So the space is a full beat before the next tremolo. It makes a very even and smooth sounding tremolo, then I have the student close the gap between beats 2 and 3 until the are back to back with no break, but not speeding up the iami part. That is always the same speed.

Anyway, I remembered another 5 tuplet exercise from my youth, which again does not sound like what you want, but I will give it to you anyway.

E-4-5-7-5-4---------------4-5-7-5-4-----------------4-5-7-5-4--------------------4-5-7-5-4-
B---------------6-5-3-5-6---------------------------------------------------------------------------
G-------------------------------------------7-5-4-5-7-----------------------------------------------
D-------------------------------------------------------------------------9-7-6-7-9-----------------
A------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A harmonic minor, you can work all the way down to the 6th and back up if you want trying to keep it even 5's. Ideally you would alternate mimim on the first string, then imimi on the other strings. But of course if you get it going fast you can do a slur here or there when you jump. This is from Paul Gilbert who would play this type of thing at around 140 bpm!

Ricardo




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 15:33:18)

Yeah I think he covers that on his great big guitar trip video, when he has been practicing he is an awesome player. I was thininking of alternating fives with the left hand and the right hand, LH12345,RH12345 using a pattern like this legato with the left hand and then one note repeated for the right. Then 23451,23451, and through all five permutations.

I really like the way the excercise that you presented is symetrical one beat moving from and returning to the index side the next beat to and from the pinkie side. I have also been doing this with the right hand piami, pamim to try and strengthen my accuracy when moving towards the RH ring finger.

I still have a little prejudice against this kind of 'shredding' kind of thing since I covered a lot of this real quick when I learned to play electric guitar and in the end found it to be a real musical dead end, it doesn't outline harmony and seems to exist purely to make teenagers jaws drop. Saying that when you hear people like Stochelo Rosenberd and Jimmy Rosenberg using these patterns but 'thinking' harmonically something really musical can happen and a sense of melody is achieved. Perhaps I should try and recover this ground but I find it so unsatisfying musically ( maybe I need to get a rhtyhm section to fix that, but who would listen to patterns all day ?) it brings me back to when I played like Vinnie Vincent (urgh).

I'll work on the pattern a little though for fun and nostalgia, I'll play it miami (m replacing p ) on the high string and piami like standard tremolo on the lower string. Then I'll try it with the RH following the same ascending descending pattern as the left hand three finger pattern (imami,amima) then I'll reverse it to make the lH and RH mirror image. I suppose it might sound good for effect if I want to suddenly baffle a listener or another soloist.
As I recall though the main interest in this playing is as a colour effect as the distortion interacts with the reverb and Gilberts slight inconsistancy in RH muting brings out harmonics which make it even more difficult to hear it even on the rare occasions when he has been bothered enough to practive it properly to keep the clarity at his ridiculous speeds. I think Gilbert got a lot of this from Randy Rhoads (tribute album live solo uneven motifs of muted pentatonics at high speed ) a player who I have noticed still has a terrific impact on what I play when someone is stupid enough to pay me to play electric.


Great player though, seems to be bored with using maths to generate technical hurdles for himself. I could claim that I am too but this thread would seem to in direct contradiction of that claim.[:D].

Thanks for all your input

D.




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 16:58:45)

quote:

I think i will just have to try and make a reasonably musical etude out of my excercises.

Well, that's what I was going to say. (before you guys race-x'd off)




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 20:15:51)

(Groan).[:)]




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 20:38:13)

quote:

- and the balkan stuff would be great.

Allright, so now that you're going to write your own funky syncopated piece in fives, here's some entertainment for you:

There's a pajdushko (2+3) at 2:38-3:40


And I expect that it'll be "fives today, tomorrow the world!" so...

a dance in 7 (2+2+3) from the beginning to 1:38


another:


this one's the other way round; 3+2+2 (first 30 seconds)


here (beginning til 1:12) is a kopanitsa - in 11 (2+2+3+2+2) see how fast it's going after about 40 seconds:



Meanwhile, over on the Indian (North meets South) side of things, here are three of the greatest percussionists on the planet having a bit of fun. It's crap video/audio quality and out of synch as usual...but there are lots of fives.




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 21:44:13)

Wow cheers Estevan. I think that it will take some real time to savour those so I will wait till I can give them the time they deserve ( I am completely beat at the moment ).

I really appreciate the time and effort you and Ricardo have taken over your replies, especially since it is such an esoteric request.[:)]

D.




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 21:51:01)

You're welcome, mate (it's amazing what you can find during lunchtime at work - since my connection at home is at least as slow as Florian's).

Now I'm sure that Ricardo is looking forward to your 'quint-essential' composition as much as I am! [;)] (no pressure, but...)




Ailsa -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 5 2007 22:04:37)

Those youtube links were great Estevan - I really enjoyed listening to that. Makes me feel that a lot of western music is very 'square' - even when our folk music is in 3, it's often phrased in blocks of 4!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan
Now I'm sure that Ricardo is looking forward to your 'quint-essential' composition



Oh but now you've gone and spoilt all that erudite work with a pun. [;)][:D][:D] Just kidding [:)]




guitarbuddha -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 6 2007 2:39:29)

Sorry Estevan... but don't hold you'r breath even if I do come up with anything worthwhile I will probably be working on my short film. It's all about me doing pressups and brushing my teeth. I am thinking of doing a sequel where I wash the dishes and empty the bins.

I expect that it will be better received than an experimental piece in five sixteen devised with the sole purpose of twisting my brain.

D.




Ricardo -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 6 2007 7:02:48)

quote:

here (beginning til 1:12) is a kopanitsa - in 11 (2+2+3+2+2) see how fast it's going after about 40 seconds:


hmmm. Seems like the same 7 beat vid you linked earlier (that happens when you cut and paste a bunch of links). Can you find that 11 again for us? sounds interesting.




Estevan -> RE: 5/16 (Sep. 6 2007 18:24:48)

Oops, yes,- hazardous handfuls of links. Thanks, R. - here you go:
(beginning til 1:12)




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