thoughts about duende (Full Version)

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HemeolaMan -> thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 7:12:35)

I'm not entirely sure what got me thinking about this. I was just after me meditation one day, and I decided for some reason the next guitar I buy would be named Jhäna. I didn't really even make the connection to flamenco at the time until about three days ago. I looked up the work to define it for a friend (interested in why I would name a guitar that) and I came across some similarity to duende:

"The Pali word Jhana is best translated as "meditative absorption state." .... You know what an "absorption state" is -- it's when you get so involved in a TV show or video game or mystery novel that you are surprised when the phone rings and brings you back to reality. The Jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness which can arise during periods of strong concentration. The Jhanas are naturally occurring states of mind, but learning how to enter them at will and how to stay in them takes practice."----- source

perhaps in our music, we ideally enter a meditation not unlike that of a theravada buddhist lol. or maybe when we're "bringin on the duende" we induce others to do the same.... any thoughts?



Florian -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 8:05:11)

quote:

The Pali word Jhana is best translated as "meditative absorption state." .... You know what an "absorption state" is -- it's when you get so involved in a TV show or video game or mystery novel that you are surprised when the phone rings and brings you back to reality. The Jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness which can arise during periods of strong concentration. The Jhanas are naturally occurring states of mind, but learning how to enter them at will and how to stay in them takes practice."----- source

perhaps in our music, we ideally enter a meditation not unlike that of a theravada buddhist lol. or maybe when we're "bringin on the duende" we induce others to do the same.... any thoughts?


...I like TV [8|]


ps. u give your guitars names ? for real ? if i had to name mine atm, i would call her Divine Brown because she sucks [&:]



Ailsa -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 9:13:59)

I'm still not really sure what duende is. I mean I've read various explanations, but none of them have given me that eureka moment. Quite honestly I think there's a lot of **** talked about it.

I used to be heavily involved in Brazilian music, mostly Rio samba, and people there talk about having 'vibe', which sort of means the gut feeling of the music. Apparently I had good vibe even though my technique wasn't all it should have been[&:][:D][:D][:D] Maybe duende is like that?

But when you see a guitarist or dancer and they seem really into the music, how can you tell they're not faking it?

Bit like a woman's orgasm, no? How can you really tell if it's real or fake?[;)][;)][:D][:D]



Ailsa -> [Deleted] (Aug. 21 2007 9:18:42)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 21 2007 9:20:46



Kate -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 12:05:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa
But when you see a guitarist or dancer and they seem really into the music, how can you tell they're not faking it?

Bit like a woman's orgasm, no? How can you really tell if it's real or fake?[;)][;)][:D][:D]


Je je je, but really I dont think duende can be faked. You cant fake flying.

Have you read Lorca's essay about it ?

Kate



Ailsa -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 12:08:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate

Have you read Lorca's essay about it ?



No I haven't. I think you are a bit of a Lorca expert? - where can I find it?

A



duende -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 12:13:09)

i call my guitar "Anders"[:D][:D][:D]



nhills -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 14:03:17)

Try Lorca's book "In Search of Duende" (New Directions, New York).

Lorca quoted Manuel Torre as saying: "All that has black sounds has duende."

and then there's the Canales quote below.

Norman



Ailsa -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 14:25:23)

Thanks Norman - found it on Amazon and ordered!![:)]



Kate -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 15:26:49)

Hi Ailsa

I did my thesis on Lorca. You can read his essay on duende online in Spanish
http://www.tinet.org/~picl/libros/glorca/gl001202.htm

and in English
http://www.tinet.org/~picl/libros/glorca/gl001202.htm

and download it here
http://www.tonykline.co.uk/klineaslorcaduende.htm

Before Lorca gave this lecture he had never mentioned Duende at all in his writings or his poetry but it was bound to be an idea that excited him. It was Manuel de Falla who encouraged him to look to the local folklore for inspiration which resulted in his first book of poetry "Poema del Canto Jondo" in 1921 and " Romancero Gitano" 1928.

Kate



mrMagenta -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 19:37:58)

Thanks a lot for the links Kate! Just started reading it and allready i've found gold.. like the following:

"The Muse stirs the intellect, bringing a landscape
of columns and an illusory taste of laurel, and
intellect is often poetry’s enemy, since it limits too
much, since it lifts the poet into the bondage of
aristocratic fineness, where he forgets that he might
be eaten, suddenly, by ants, or that a huge arsenical
lobster might fall on his head – things against which
the Muses who inhabit monocles, or the roses of
lukewarm lacquer in a tiny salon, have no power."



Kate -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 20:19:14)

Glad to be of some use here amongst all the guitarists [:)]

I think of Duende as a primitive state, something that connects us to the 'other' that we lost when we began thinking too much. I saw a dancer once who was in an amazing state of grace it seemed like he was flying. Others in the audience said the same. The dancer was Andrés Jimenez, when he performed in Chicago. Another time I was at the house of a friend ( I think it was Jingle from Nerja when he lived in Granada) and El Charico began singing. I had no idea what he was singing about but I found myself with tears streaming down my face. He stopped singing and said " Mira la chica llorando" ( Look the girl is crying) It touched me somewhere deep inside and as Lorca said, it went beyond anything intellectual. From a performer's pont of view I think it comes when they are so immersed that they go beyond what they are normally capable of.

Another time at a Bob Marley concert there was a moment when it felt like the entire audience held their breath as if we were a single oraganism. Again it was not just me who felt it but everyone I spoke to who was at the concert. Obvioulsy I did not speak to everyone there, about 60,000 of us I believe.

Kate



HemeolaMan -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 21 2007 23:06:21)

I usually imagine duende being at least a multi part thing. I kind of think of it as a concentrative duende: the kind you experience when practicing or performing intensly; a sort of escape from anything but a single focus. atmospheric duende: when you share a feeling in a room and are able too feed on it in a reciprocative fashion. and a possesive duende: a duende that takes over you and allows you to exceed yourself, if only for an evening or a compas.

I don't separate duende from life or keep it strict to flamenco. in my life I notice things and feel profoundly about them very occasionally, i relate that gut feeling to duende. like if a tree is shaded a certain way and all of a sudden things become "real" to you. like we live in a place but don't always get the opportunity to really experience a thing in its natural and most wonderful state. Or, if i'm listening to a tune I've heard a hundred times and I finally get it, the coded message of the artist finally cracked and displayed as clear as day.

That's kind of how i think of duende. I've felt that way for a while, and I guess having something to call it makes me feel a little more connected to people as a whole. hoping that the experience is universal if ya know what im getting at lol.

sorry about all the sap in that post lol



andresito -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 24 2007 14:49:49)

Juan Martin (aw yeeeeah, here goes...) said 'Duende is the spirit which inspires those extraordinary, perhaps fletting moments in flamenco when the performer achieves total communication with the audience. Only the truest artistry and 'aficion' free of any taint of egosim or showmanship can create the possibility of its occurring.... It is A RARE THING, HARDLY TO BE TALKED ABOUT...'

so everyone shut up about duende already and get back to playing guitar [:D]



Guest -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 24 2007 15:03:53)

o crap, dont say the j word around here man[:D]



Guest -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 24 2007 15:05:45)

o.k heres my take on duende. duende is like banging an ugly chick...its mystical[:o]



Ailsa -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 24 2007 15:27:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominic
duende is like banging an ugly chick...


Dom I'm not sure what to say. Looking at the photo on your profile, you're not exactly a gorgeous hunk yourself are you? A little bit too much body hair I'd say. [;)][:D][:D]



Guest -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 24 2007 15:32:56)

actually im the guy in the straw hat with the fiddle[:D]
o.k im logging off now[&o]



gato -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 25 2007 2:13:49)

Yes, HemeolaMan, I always thought it was a, 'duality of states, in of one and of another,' quite like meditation where you are performing the mantra, and experiancing the stillness, both in the totality of the meditative state. Whereas, in music you perform technically, and express the creative-emotive, both in simultaneity. Though I always see it as discriptive of the context of the useage of the word. So you really have to have an awareness of what it is that you are describing, in context. Then of course, I am willing to be educated, though that is my take on the meaning of the word 'duende', 'anyone else? Oh well....

Gary



andresito -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 25 2007 6:20:42)

Sorry, I know it was bad of me, but I had to confirm the source of the quote, right? [;)] I actually do get sick of hearing (reading?) the word duende though... Wouldn't it be sufficient to say it's getting 'lost' in the music you're playing without getting lost?



Jasmine_27 -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 27 2007 15:05:55)

H-man,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Though duende is hard to describe, my take on it is this: You essentially become a vehicle for the music and the divine energy and raw power it embodies. Some say you become the music itself, or the guitar plays you.. This may sound like voodoo flamenco, but when the spirit moves you, it's totally for real. For me, it's even better than making love! Hallelujah - can I get a witness?! (gospel riff, y'all, not an invitation to voyeurism!)



John O. -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 29 2007 9:49:33)

I believe although the term duende is only used in flamenco, the feeling can come with many other types of music or art forms.

A friend of mine who plays classical piano told me about how she gave a concert once and somewhere in the middle totally zoned out, forgot where she was physically, her fingers where moving but it didn't feel like she was moving them, it felt like she was screaming or crying through the piano. Afterwards her pulse was really high and she had to take a breather to cool off before continuing. She got a standing ovation.

I think that's just as much duende as when it happens to a flamenco. I wonder if P-Diddy ever got his duende on during a show [:D]



luke.park -> RE: thoughts about duende (Aug. 31 2007 11:38:11)

hi guys,
cool discussion. for me, this feeling is an utterly personal experience and its impossible to describe it as everytime it is different. in a very selfish way, it is why i love performing, because there is always that moment which comes, be it the meditative state or that passing moment (im not gona try and describe it) which completely seems to transform you for a moment to a much higher level of expression.
to be able to control entering it would be a whooole different kettle o' fish!



NormanKliman -> RE: thoughts about duende (Sep. 1 2007 14:55:00)

Hi everyone,

I've just joined the forum and this post caught my eye.

There's a concept known as samadhi, which is defined by Webster's as follows:

n. Hinduism, Buddhism. contemplation of an object of meditation, seen as one stage in which the distinction between subject and object is preserved, and another stage in which all distinctions are completely absorbed.

I don't know much about this, because I just stumbled across the word in the dictionary one day, but it sure sounds to me like what HemeolaMan said about a ringing telephone bringing one back to reality.

Now don't get me wrong: Samadhi is much more than daydreaming, and, as someone else has mentioned, there's a lot of airy-fairy nonsense said about duende. But I think there's some real food for thought here. When you become completely absorbed in something, your ego is sometimes pushed into the background, and that might happen during a particularly engaging conversation, hot performance or, uh, just watching TV. You can become absorbed in your instrument or in the singer or dancer that you're accompanying. On several occasions, I've seen how flamenco artists, when really absorbed in performance, will look confused and short of breath immediately after the last note has sounded. People are applauding but the artists don't immediately react. It looks like they have to come back from... somewhere.

Obviously, distractions are the biggest obstacle to entering this state of total absorption, and I suspect that rhythmic imprecision is the most commonly ocurring distraction. Aside from people throwing things at you, of course.

Just a few rambling thoughts. I'd enjoy reading other people's opinions on this subject.

Norman



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