tough tremolo (Full Version)

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Stu -> tough tremolo (Jul. 8 2007 13:21:02)

Hi folks,
Any pointers on playing this?

----12-12-10-10------10-10-10-10--------------------------------
---------------------------------------------10-10-10-10-10--------
---------------------10-------------------------------------------------
--9---------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first two parts are ok but the when I get to the third part with all five notes same string same fret I kind of freak out and don't really know where to put my thumb after its initial stroke which then leads me to lose contol.

I guess my question also applies to something like this....

E----------------------------------
B------------------9-9-9-9-------
G-------------10------------------
D----------------------------------

Whereas my thumb would normally come to rest on the B string, it obviously cant here. So where should i put it?

Stu



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 8 2007 14:34:38)

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Adam -> RE: tough tremelo (Jul. 8 2007 18:54:23)

Yeah, playing apoyando is a good way to start out, having the thumb as an anchor is really helpful when learning the techniques, but you really should strive for the kind of finger independence that would allow you to play the trémolo no matter where your thumb is. That's the answer for that: play tirando (or "free stroke"), and with a bit of practice you should be able to do this kind of thing just fine. The same applies for arpeggios too, btw.



Ricardo -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 5:37:31)

I disagree about tirando thumb, but it really depends on the specific passage.

Anyway, I used to have this problem, but now I figured out the trick. You have to think of the tremolo sort of backwards. I don't mean play the notes backwards, but the thing is you are thinking like the pattern is piami, piami, etc in groups of 5. The way flamenco players sometimes feel the tremolo is actually like this:
P........iamiP.........iamiP.......etc. so I need the NEXT bass note from your tremolo to help you. For now, lets assume it just repeats.

E--------------------------12-12-10-10-----------------10-10-10-10--------
B-10-10-10-10------------------------------------------------------------10---repeat
G---------------------------------------------10-----------------------------------
D------------------9----------------------------------------------------------------
A------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is OK to at first not have even 5 tuplets. Practice like 1e&ah 2, 3e&ah 4, 5e&ah 6.
So 2 4 and 6 are the thumb bass notes, and all 3 of those are rest stroke. After you get the feeling of this, start to drag the time of the iami notes and decrease the space between each group (iamiP.... iamiP...iamiP..iamiP,iamiPiamiPiamiP etc), until it is as even as YOU want. Remember flamenco tremolo does not have to be perfectly even 5's all the time, but you always need to hit that bass note after the tremolo notes.

Ricardo



Stu -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 11:56:11)

Thanks Fellas,
I tried a few tremolo passages last night following the first advice about tirando strokes and found it pretty difficult. Especially when the bass notes were on consecutive string where an apoyando stroke would seem logical and use less energy in movement. Perhaps this is just due to habit. thanks for your advice Ricardo. I am working now but will go over it later when I get home. It actually seems to make more sense than the way I've been thinking of it.

stu



guitarbuddha -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 12:33:50)

Hi Ricardo, it is good to see a non-puritan concept of technique described. Some would argue that it must be in time but I really don't know how they can say that after listening to pretty much any album of the last thirty years.


It is often very difficult to describe the qualities of a good rubato. The idea that phrasing generally moves towards the beat rather than away from it is real important, the vocal quality that this gives playing is sublime. When we have control we can break the time whenever we please. Practicing varying the gaps as you describe is valuable to get this control.

Another thing to think about Manzmann is attack, sometimes a phrase sounds odd of we try and use a lot of attack all of the time as the vocal style line will naturally suggest a drop in volume at the end of the breath. Practice tailing off and see what you think about it. Generally tailing off helps keep you relaxed and it is slightly easier to keep time and you can ghost the last few notes if you like. Think vocal. Also try and built volume, a good excercise is to start very quiet and build then tail off to almost silence and then repeat.

D.



Stu -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 14:49:02)

thanks buddha,
You mention the word vocal a few times, what is the "vocal style line"

stu



guitarbuddha -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 15:06:35)

People often say that the purest expression of music in any style is from the voice. I enjoy instrumental music most when the performer takes the care to inflect and colour the melody in the way that a sensitive person might sing it. It is like imitating what a singer might do. This is a way of looking at the guitar which transcends style since obviously we would imagine the appropriate singer for each song.

I find that this is the best level on which to look at technique. Lots of things take care of themselves if we look at the musicality first and last. Really I think all music comes from the voice. My own is frankly rubbish so I try and make my guitar sing for me ( and shout and scream and cry ).

Ricardo's excellent advice comes, I think, from listening to Nunez ( he is a master of what Ricardo describes, in particular his Granaina with the Nature Boy quote ) and working out how the performance works technically even though it seems ( superficially ) to break a lot of rules, deep, deep rubato huge gaps between P and i. He also shapes the phrases with his dynamics, listen to how people sing and how at one overall dynamic level the actual volume of the voice can vary tremendously from moment to moment. This can happen even when every note gives the impression of being forte there can be tremendous variety ( like golden age Paco all agression but loads of shape ) and I think that this is what Romerito has been talking about, it is how Cameron sang. if you look at a soundwave of a good singer, the musical impression may be of constant strength but there will be moments of near silence where the graph practically zeroes out.

That is how I like my tremolo.


D.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 9 2007 16:55:04)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 9 2007 17:42:16)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 9 2007 17:49:19)

Wouldn't it be nice if people more felt the need to understand one's postion before criticising it Kevin ?



gato -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 2:18:01)

'good stuff.......



wiseguy493 -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 17:27:37)

Ideally, you'd want to play apoyando. When that is not possible playing tirando is an option, but will be more difficult to support the hand for a steady tremolo. You should be ABLE to play tirando, but only do so when you need to for the sake of stamina, clarity and rhythmic control



JasonMcGuire -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 18:42:52)

My 2 cents on the discussion is this..... I love Gerardo's unique style of playing tremolo. I don't really play mine that way but I think it is very cool. It suits his music well. I use apoyando only bass notes that need to sound more accented. Another thing is this. I see tremolo as 3 separate parts, not 2 as most do. I see it as a bass part, an accompaniment and a melody. Usually I play the "bass" part apoyando, the accompaniment tirando and the melody with the tremolo. I always try to make or at least hint at a counter melody below the main tremolo melody. I think dynamics are essential in making tremolo passages reach their musical potential. I love to try and make the dynamics follow the contour of the melody. Just like when accompanying a singer....the melody in a tremolo passage should have top priority. If the melody isn't cutting through clearly, then things are out of balance. One of my students last night asked me how to make the melody in the tremolo louder................"pull the strings harder" was my answer. Of course you can achieve the same effect of balance by making the accompanying parts more quiet. Here is a little snippet I composed for GuitarBuddha's "Workshop" challenge thingy......

http://www.caminosflamencos.com/soleatremolo.mp3



Ron.M -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 21:46:39)

Really nice Jason,
I agree with you that there are two kinds of tremelo...the kind which are very "even" in nature and the kind that are very "lyrical", where the evenness is given up to heighten the expression.

I don't think you were around the forum at the time I posted this from a very early PdL on the BBC and recorded from a mic held up to the TV loudspeaker.
So here's it again....

One of my favourite tremelos ever...

cheers,

Ron



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JasonMcGuire -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 22:52:50)

Isn't that the Carlos Montoya's tremolo section from his famous version of Malagueña?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 10 2007 22:56:10)

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Ricardo -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 23:19:29)

And Sabica's, Malagueña by Lecuona version, not the real malagueña.



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Jim Opfer -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 10 2007 23:27:25)

I feel playing tremolo should be varied, sometimes even and sometimes with space. It's good to mix this about.
I also feel it's important to pull out this third voice that Jason mentioned although I never really thought about it in that way untill I read Jason's comment.
Thumb should be apoyando although it's not always possible.
I made this link to a short tremolo for Solea I put up tonight on Youtube. It's a simple enough composition I made up some time ago as an intro for Solea. It relies on variety to make it work and I hope it helps the general discussion.




gato -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 11 2007 6:38:59)

Jim, I agree with what you are saying, tremolo should be varied, and there is no standard way to do that, it's as individual as the music as written and played. Very nice, I enjoyed your video on youtube, thanks, and I am glad to hear what you said.....good work.....



Ricardo -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 11 2007 18:08:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

Of course Ricardo had to come in and ridicule us all [:D][:D]

At least I can say I knew that; I learned it in the forum a while back. [;)]


Sorry, I get asked to play that tune like every week, along with besame culo. When ever they ask if I "know malagwehnah", I say sure and start singing full voice loud Mellizo version![:D] Everyone looks at me strange like "what is THAT???"[:D]

So I also did a tremolo that demonstrates what I was talking about earlier about when you have a bass note and the tremolo note on the same string. I just made it up loosely based on Jason's chords, for Guitarbuddha's "worshop?" thread.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=69452&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Ricardo



cneberg -> RE: tough tremolo (Jul. 13 2007 18:26:53)

quote:

I feel playing tremolo should be varied, sometimes even and sometimes with space. It's good to mix this about.
I also feel it's important to pull out this third voice that Jason mentioned although I never really thought about it in that way untill I read Jason's comment.
Thumb should be apoyando although it's not always possible.
I made this link to a short tremolo for Solea I put up tonight on Youtube. It's a simple enough composition I made up some time ago as an intro for Solea. It relies on variety to make it work and I hope it helps the general discussion.



This is just so beautiful... The intro is amazing, a bit celtic.

Awesome!



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