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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 2 2007 23:56:58)

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Ricardo -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 3 2007 21:32:44)

I think it is important to learn at some point, even if you start off with more modern material. But it is also ok to "forget it" at some point. But skipping it all together I personally feel is not a good idea. At least if you WANT to sound like the real thing. Some students of flamenco are just in it for the cool techniques or whatever.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 3 2007 21:50:37)

quote:

But skipping it all together I personally feel is not a good idea.


I'd have to agree Ricardo, the really good players you hear on the Internet, you can just tell they have listened to and played Trad stuff at some point and not just worked for months trying to duplicate a Vincente Amigo track or whatever...

That's my opinion anyway.

cheers,

Ron



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 3 2007 22:32:06)

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Bogdan1980 -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 3 2007 22:44:22)

Traditional to modern seems to be a required evolution which envolves understanding better the music you play, its origins and roots, and developing a high level of familiarity with technique in order to be able to experiment and know what you're doing.
Paco played more traditional stuff first and evolved to what he does now. I think it is an indispensable part of music education.



ToddK -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 3 2007 22:54:59)

To me, the sound hasnt changed. Just the playing is more synchopated
and the recordings are more slick.

But the heart of the sound is the same basically. I play old and new
falsettas right next to each other, and they can blend together just fine.

Take a new V. Amigo track, strip off the cajon, bass, percs etc.. take
off the reverb, replace the condensor mic with an old Telefunken mic,
and it would be surprisingly similar to the early 70's era stuff. (Serranito, Monolo S.)



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 3 2007 23:08:50)

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Ricardo -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 3 2007 23:36:30)

quote:

Do you think it should be revisited?


Well, that is sort of what the top maestros say to do. Paco made a new minera and talked about how important it was to go back and study Montoya's version since something was "missing". Nunez recorded Impetu, but more significantly, he teaches old material in his course, which is a great way to reivisit it yourself. Teach it. I love teaching old Sabicas stuff to students. Even Tomatito recorded that famous Montoya falseta por Rondena not long ago.

But regarding your description of how "different" people sound, well ask most of these guys to all play the SAME falseta and you will get a wide variety of "sounds". Todds point is more general. Tomatito can play a paco falseta, montoya, and one of his own and it all sounds like TOMATITO. But just because he is a modern player, does not mean he will sound like Vicente. And he doesn't. But to folks who don't know about flamenco, they probably can't tell the difference between ANY guitarist if it was not for the recording sound like Todd mentioned.

Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 3 2007 23:56:14)

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ToddK -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 4 2007 0:07:09)

Like Ricardo said, im speaking very generally.

In my opinion, you're really talking more about "Style" than "Sound".

Sound, to me, is just that. Not necesarily tied to "Style" or the material
being played.

The technique hasnt changed THAT much, and neither have the guitars.

Serranito and Amigo could trade guitars, and they'd still sound like themselves,
though they are a generation apart in style.
TK



gato -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 4 2007 6:26:51)

That's what makes it Art, the Artist has to decide what he is going to do and what are to be his influences, and where he gets it from, not unlike any other artform. You can't make art/music without taking chances, and that is all up to you; Wether you go with the 'classics' or wether you abandon them all together, but you must familiarize your self with alot of things in order to do that, and that, is an ongoing process that will never end as long as you are serious about what it is that you are doing. This involves the flamenco on all levels. And, it will always involve old things, new things, old territories, and new territories. You must work on it. And if you do, you will know.



Ricardo -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 4 2007 7:34:24)

quote:

Todd's point was well taken, but if Habichuela(still alive) and Canizares were to play a concert together I dare say many people (new or not) could tell the difference.


Well in a concert folks can SEE the players. But if they HEARD a concert on tape, and did not know any better, they might NOT be able to distinguish. You say "many" so what does that mean exactly??? I don't think Todd is saying "it is all the same, old or new". His point is that YOU the player can play new or old in the context of the same piece, the music CAN blend together. "Old style" is not only the techniques, but the sound of the record dust poping and stuff. It is the whole package. YOu play something by sabicas, but shift it off the beat and use cajon and bass, it is modern jazz menco.

Your question is in regards to "traditional material" which is the specific falsetas, not the interpretation. Just like in Classical music, you can "interpret" the classics how you will. Traditional flamenco can also be called "classical flamenco" for the same reason.

So if you were going to compose for an orchestra would it be helpful to know about what Bach or Mozart did with orchestras? Sure. Same for flamenco, you would do yourself good by understanding what the maestros of old were doing.

Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 4 2007 7:42:16)

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ToddK -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 4 2007 8:41:27)

Even though there probably isnt really an end all answer to this question,
it doesnt mean its not beneficial to discuss it.

I love discussing these things. I like knowing how other people hear things,
and get different perspectives. Its part of what makes us better musicians.

Great topic R! Keep those wheels a turnin'[:)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 4 2007 17:16:01)

I hear a lot of people play flamenco ( amatuers and enthusiasts ) and on of the main problems is that at many points the lose track of the beat. I have even had a teacher who ( although he was playing in compas most of the time ) was not clear wether he was on the beat or off of it, he seemed confident that all accented notes were on the beat ( perhaps this is one consequence of looking at tab only ). I think that to develop a good sense of syncopation on an instrument it is really essential to play material which kicks off and lands on the beat a lot. Then if you want you can morph it into a more modern style purely by anticipation the beat more often.

Another good idea is to reverse engineer a modern solo to a possible old style version and work back to the modern version systematically.

Singers dont need to do this kind of thing but I think that instrumentalists really do since hope and passion are simply enough to keep oneself in compas.

I suppose that I am saying that it is much easier to understand the modern style/sound if you have a firm grasp of the old style/sound. It may be possible to do well without doing this but I would suspect that it would be much harder work.

I think that thematically Habichuella and Amigo sound very similar. Serranito rocks he is a real original and his compositions have real development and thematic unity.

Regards
D.



Guest -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 3:52:41)

yawn[&o]



guitarbuddha -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 8:51:43)

Thanks Dominic for your considered contribution, when it is from the heart it is always appreciated.



Guest -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 9:18:06)

sorry David, i was never very academic or good at analysing things



Guest -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 9:29:11)

but i do enjoy listning to the music of all the artists mentioned here.



Florian -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 12:14:25)

Domenic [:D][:D]


Romerito..

Interesting discussion, I dont really have a formulated locked down opinion and my tastes and ideas are allways changing anyway. Personally I think you should start with traditional not because its essential to your artist but because its, more straight foward, the timing , the modes etc. it creates for a good foundation for technique, sence of compas etc.. And I gues beeing educated in traditional and modern will not hurt you one bit.

It makes the difference between "informed" modern playing and uninformed improvisation.


But ...when i think traditional, i dont necesarely think Sabicas or Nino Ricardo. not because i dont like them but because i cant sitt trough the bad quality recordings expecially since i got about 400 beautifully recorded albums to listen to and digest. (also mibe I am rebeling a litlle, just because everybody tells me that i should be listening to them [:)] it agravates me that i am missing out on what everybody else seems to be getting or atlist pretending to be getting [8|])... there are many great guitarists who play great traditional stuff today or a nice balance of traditional eg. Moraito, Pepe y Juan Habichuela, Melchor etc, i listen to them for my traditional dose of education, and they listened and were influenced by Sabicas and Ricardo soo the way i see it I am not really missing out [:)] I just get it in a better quality recording [;)]

and besides.. Nino and Sabicas are not necesarely anymore traditional or flamenco than Moraito and Habichuela... just older.


when we listen to flamenco guitar,a bulerias for example we like to hear modern original stuff but we also like to hear the traditional strong base undercoats, so i think even if you dont necesarely play Sabicas or Ricardo's music, u can still find your element of traditional and combine it with whatever it is that you wanna do.

I got another one of my wise sayings for this one [:D][:D][:D]...

" you can only get to step 2 comfortably by stepping on step 1 first, if you jump straight to 2 you might get there but it will slow you down for step 3 as you need to stop and regain your balance " .... theres alot of truth in that ....[;)]



koella -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 15:01:15)

Jezus Flo, you've become one of them.
You've become a wise man

May ten thousand Rumanian warriors haunt me if I don't mean that. ( spits on the ground )



TANúñez -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 15:16:09)

quote:

" you can only get to step 2 comfortably by stepping on step 1 first, if you jump straight to 2 you might get there but it will slow you down for step 3 as you need to stop and regain your balance " .... theres alot of truth in that ....


Wow...that was deep man.



guitarbuddha -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 16:18:50)

My apologies also, I too am often too quick of the mark Dom.

D.



Florian -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 16:23:59)

quote:

Jezus Flo, you've become one of them.
You've become a wise man


HOW dare you !![:@] I take great pride in going the other way [:)] may your fingernails aquire so much dirt !!.. underneath.. that tomarow you will have to shower and scrub 3 times before you can play (spits on the ground, adjusts balls, wipes nose with sleve and walks out of the room in a determined way.....)

quote:

Wow...that was deep man


Yeah!!!...I know ![8|] theres plenty more where that came from, but i am saving the GOOD ideas for a educational life aproach book..it contains advice and suggestions from me on how to tackle some of the obsticles that we sometimes face in life, and just general well beeing life advice...

I am thinking of calling it..

65% of the time...Works everytime ! [:D]



Matic -> RE: POLL: How important is playing traditional material to developing a good flamenco sound (Jul. 5 2007 18:35:59)

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]**** I adore this place



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