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Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 9 2004 15:52:50)

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Florian -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 9 2004 16:54:18)

Abdullah from FlamencoG****Y ?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 9 2004 17:02:30)

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Florian -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 9 2004 17:04:08)

Oh yeah :) does Becool80 ring a bell ? :))



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Florian -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 9 2004 22:08:03)

Welcome to ForoFLamenco Abdullah



Tenshu -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 5:34:16)

Florian,

can you arrange for a place for him to upload all this? I expect an overload of emails for Abdullah.

Thanks for the offer Abdullah. I'm gonna send you an email tonight.



Florian -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 6:16:45)

Tenshu I think the best person to speak to about this, is Simon. There are free storage places on the web ,such as streamload.com where they give you 100mb free for a week to try, they only let you upload mp3's and mpeg's but you can just change the extension of the file from "pdf" to "mp3" or zip to mp3. ( I suggest making rar's of 10 mbs each because you are only alowed 10 downloads per account ) but i dont know i am no expert :) never done that before in my life !!



Jon Boyes -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 8:51:23)

Look, I'm the first person not to 'look a gift horse in the mouth' and I confess that if I found a fiver on the street I'd spend it rather than inform the police.

..but guys, don't you think this is going a little TOO far??

Swapping tabs is one thing, but don't you think that uploading Faucher's entire scanned catalogue of (excellent) transcriptions might affect his work just a little bit?

I don't think Foro Flamenco should be supporting anyone that seems intent on putting someone like Faucher out of business. This site should be promoting the interests of flamenco, not destroying it.

Jon



Escribano -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions - clarification please (Feb. 10 2004 9:34:41)

Hi Abdullah and welcome to the forum. Can you confirm that this offer is not in breach of our Forum Agreement

quote:

4. Upload, or otherwise make available, files that contain images, photographs, software or other material protected by (i) intellectual property laws, including, by way of example, and not as limitation, copyright or trademark laws or (ii) by rights of privacy or publicity, if any unless you own or control the rights thereto or have received all necessary consents to do the same.


If you do not have the necessary consent to make these available, I am afraid I will have to withdraw this thread.



Billyboy -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions - clarification please (Feb. 10 2004 11:23:32)

Faucher is a good guy, I speak to him occasionally on the phone, and he is very friendly, I have spent many happy hours working through his transcriptions which are always ‘bob on’, he told me he would never put the transcriptions on the net for purchase on his web site, because of piracy, which in the main is avoided with postal paper transcriptions. I admire Abdullah's altruism, but I think Alain would be steaming if he knew.
Cheers
Dave



Florian -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 12:37:00)

Hey always wandered about this , Does Faucher pay a procentage to the Artist ? or does he buy the rights ?

Also, is HE a good guitarist ?

Does he do his own stuff also > has he got a cd or something ? how old is he ?



Billyboy -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 13:59:02)

I once showed R Riqueni a transcription of one of his pieces, and he wasn't too pleased, but I think in recent years Alain has offered Guitarists the chance to collaborate on a book, like he has done with Habichuela etc. in which case the guitarist will get a percentage, but I think it is a bit of a grey area legaly whether a transcription would belong to the author or transcriber, in my view if the guitarist has had no imput, then the work put in by the transcriber deserves all the credit, but keeping in mind it is a very small minority intrest buisness , and profits small, but you would have to ask Faucher on that/
Dave



Billyboy -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 14:03:39)

He once said he wasn't that good a player, but I find it hard to beleive given his deep knowledge of flamenco.
Dave



Guest -> [Deleted] (Feb. 10 2004 14:47:09)

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Jon Boyes -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 15:11:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Billyboy
but I think it is a bit of a grey area legaly whether a transcription would belong to the author or transcriber,


Not grey at all - see my lengthy post in the archive on the subject.

The transcriber owns the copyright to any particular transcription they do, but as it is a copy (albeit in a different form) of an original piece of work, they need the permission of the original artist to publish (and the permission of the orginal publisher, if the artist does not have publishing rights.)

If the transcriber does not seek permission, they face legal proceeedings should the artist wish to sue.

It is the same as recording a cover of another person's tune. The person doing the cover would own the copyright to that performance, but obviously not the copyright of the original work.

Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) (Feb. 10 2004 15:16:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abdullah

Simon,
I didn`t put any book which it contain the copyright. [:)]


Not sure what you mean, but copyright is assigned to an artist automatically when a work is created, this is international law.

Jon



Ron.M -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 15:22:56)

quote:

I once showed R Riqueni a transcription of one of his pieces


Hey Dave,
So you've met RR? Where and when and what's he like?
I've only ever seen him on the telly, just once and he was phenomenal!

cheers

Ron



Florian -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 15:40:51)

Wait a second , are you serious ? R. Riqueni didnt know and aprove of it ? Dont you find that moraly wrong since it was R.Riqueny's composition ?
Is like buying a "Beatles" cd writing down the words and selling it without permission.

But yet we are expected to do the right thing by Faucher ?

I am sure Faucher is a very nice man, but so is Abdullah, he comes from 3rd world country where and even if he did want to pay for the transcriptions he couldnt, does that mean that he cant play flamenco ? I say go for it Abdullah you live in Kuwait where theres no teachers, no flamenco, no money its your responsabillity to yourself to get it anyway you can.

You know , in any city in the world where there is flamenco you will find a A. Faucher transcription, he hasent dont too bad for himself, however just because you write your name on it is not yours.

Just my opinion on the matter.



Billyboy -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 16:01:48)

Ah but I heard that if the transcriber makes an alteration then the transcription is not a copy of someone elses piece but an interpritation, dont know if this has ever been tested in court.
Dave



Billyboy -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 16:14:03)

You have a good point there Florin and Jon, no he had never seen the transcription before, and maybe I was responsable for a Tiff between Riqueni and Faucher that I inadvertantly started ( I showed him it to see if it was accurate), and this is maybe why he has never done a book of Riquenis material. I met him at the Cordoba festival in 95, I always regreted not going on his course, it was nearly empty, and I would have had almost one to one tuition, the whole course I was on was terrible and the heat at the time was unbearable, topping all that I got a nasty illness, and after only a few days had to come back home, so it is a time I would sooner forget.
Cheers
Dave



Florian -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 16:15:15)

Yes i have heard that also :)


Since we where talking about this i just went to have a look at the prices for this Tabs



quote:

Transcription Prices
Single transcription €12 per piece plus post and packing
Anthologies €12 per anthology plus post and packing
Titles marked ** are €24 each. Titles marked *** are €36 each (This is because of their exceptional length): Bulerias (Paco del Gastor)** Alegrias dance accompaniment (Manuel Silveria)** Sole‡ dance accompaniment (Ramon Amador)*** Bulerias for cante accompaniment (Quique Paredes with Vincente Soto)***


Now he charges €12 per piece, that is how much the Artist would charge for the hole Album cd, Is Mr. Foucher saying that there is alot more work involved to what he is doing than what the Artist who creates the Hole album and records it and pays Musiceans, Singers etc to appear on it?



Conrad -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 16:18:11)

That's interesting...

So that may as well apply to all transcriptions of flamenco, because how can we ever know what rasgueado (for example) a player is playing unless we are sitting right in front of them. Of course I'm just being hopeful. [:)] But seriously... I wonder how much of a piece has to be altered for this to apply.

cheers,

conrad



Florian -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 16:28:12)

Cnotecon I dont know but I have a new cd out with many original compositions , some of the tracks are : Purple Submarin
: Blue leather imitation Shoes
: La Bomba
:Cant touch that
: Heartbrake Motel



Conrad -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 16:52:07)

hahaha

good one

Florian, you always have a light thing to say to ease the issue. Very cool.

By the way, I have been in contact with Abdullah. Very cool guy. With the best intentions as well. Just like you wrote, there seems to be very little opportunity for flamenco where he lives.

conrad



Jon Boyes -> RE: Free Accurate Transcriptions (Pdl, tomatito,.....) by Alain Foucher (Feb. 10 2004 17:36:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Billyboy
Ah but I heard that if the transcriber makes an alteration then the transcription is not a copy of someone else's piece but an interpretation,


Then you heard wrong, otherwise all I would have to do is change one note in each one of Faucher's transcriptions, photocopy the book and sell it myself, and be within the law.
This would make copyright law a complete farce and no artists would be able to securely protect their rights to anything.

A transcription, or a cover version of someone else's song to use my other example, is always going to be an interpretation to some extent, that is unavoidable. The key concept in the law is whether *a substantial part of the original work has been copied*.

Of course, cases *do* go to court to determine exactly this point, particularly in modern dance music, for example, that uses samples.

For a transcription to meet this citeria - be merely an interpretation - it would have to be so significantly altered from the original that it would be a useless transcription for anyone hoping to learn the original, thus defeating the object.

As a point of interest, "substantial" in copyright law does not necessaily relate to quantity.


Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 17:44:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
Now he charges €12 per piece, that is how much the Artist would charge for the hole Album cd, Is Mr. Foucher saying that there is alot more work involved to what he is doing than what the Artist who creates the Hole album and records it and pays Musiceans, Singers etc to appear on it?


Thats cheap. I would charge double that based on the number of hours it would take me to transcribe something for someone.

Faucher is publishing his own stuff, Florian. Its all about economics. Its ridiculous to compare the price of a single transcription of his with a CD that has worldwide distribution through its record company (which the artist is unlikely to have a say in the price, by the way.)

Hopefully, Alain will strike a publishing deal to get the prices down, though.

Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 17:56:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
I am sure Faucher is a very nice man, but so is Abdullah, he comes from 3rd world country where and even if he did want to pay for the transcriptions he couldnt, does that mean that he cant play flamenco ?


Not at at all. But does coming from a third world country give him the right to put one of flamenco's best transcribers out of business?

Frankly, I don't care where Abdullah gets his music from, and I don't know why we ended up arguing morality. I'm saying that its bad for flamenco if scans (actual copies) of all Faucher's stuff is posted on the web for anyone to download. Why, seriously, would anyone go and buy it?

When Tomatito/Moriato/PDL/whoever brings out his next album, and you are looking for the best quality transcriptions on the market, what are you going to do if Faucher has taken up gardening because some dimwit posted all his work on the web?

Jon

BTW, Fauchers collections, as opposed to individual transcriptions, *are* good value for money. I had the Moraito one for Christmas which cost about £25.



Escribano -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 18:16:04)

quote:

I say go for it Abdullah you live in Kuwait where theres no teachers, no flamenco, no money its your responsabillity to yourself to get it anyway you can.


I believe you are doing Abdullah and Kuwait a disservice, no money, no teachers? Not sure about flamenco[;)]

Anyway, as I am not in the mood to resolve a "grey" area on behalf of anyone at the present time, please contact Abdullah directly if you are interested. We won't be knowingly hosting copyright materials on this site. In my book, copyright in a publication is vested in the author i.e. the design, font, text the lot. Whether or not the actual content is in dispute i.e. permission from the guitarist.



Billyboy -> RE: Transcriptions (Feb. 10 2004 19:05:20)

I would agree 12 euros is very cheap, for the work that goes into it, I know from my own experiance transcribing that it can take 4 months 4- 5 hours a day to transcribe a whole piece, the price is very reasonable.
Dave



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