PdL Guitars

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Ron.M -> PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 11:46:12)
While I don't question the quality of these guitars, (in fact Jerzy has one and rates it highly), but do PdL and Ramon really try them out first? Or does Paco just sign a bunch of labels in advance and delegate the quality control to somebody else? Forgive me for being so sceptical, I think it just comes with age. [:D] Ron

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 12:37:54)
quote: )but do PdL and Ramon really try them out first? Yes, absolutely! I believe more so Ramon than Paco but Paco is quite invloved.

Billyboy -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 13:26:31)
The one I tried was not that good, more like a classical with golpe plates, very ordinary and way over priced for the quality. Dave

Ron.M -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:09:49)
quote: but Paco is quite invloved. That's what I mean......he signs the labels! LOL! Also when Paco endorses a guitar, does it mean that he would be happy to play it himself, or does it mean that he considers it to be good quality and value for the money, but would not play it himself? Ron

gerundino63 -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:24:11)
I have a little story about Paco de Lucia. A frend of me knows him in person, ( unbelievable but true). He is a frend too from Dragan Musulin, A very good guitarbuilder from Germany, little unknown, but he makes high standard guitars. Normally he built classical guitars, but my frend told him, to make a flamenco guitar. When Paco was for a concert in Germany, my frend took Paco to Dragan Musulin. Paco de Lucia bought three guitars right away. I have heared, he had very much guitars and he saves them. greetings, Peter

Guest -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:28:27)
Hola Dave I tried the whole range at the Feria de Flamenco in Sevilla a couple of years ago: you have said it all: very ordinary and way over priced for the quality. I imagine that Paco picked an extraordinary example for his own recording. Suerte Sean

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:32:22)
quote: Also when Paco endorses a guitar, does it mean that he would be happy to play it himself, or does it mean that he considers it to be good quality and value for the money, but would not play it himself? Ron have you not seen the new video for "Cositas Buenas"? He's playing the guitar. He also recorded all but one song on the new CD with the PdL guitar. He will also be touring with it.

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:35:52)
Hola Peter. I have heard many good things about the German luthier Dragan Musulin. My very first guitar instructor, Stefan Schyga, played, toured and recorded with one. They are very nice guitars. Expensive but nice.

Ron.M -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 14:57:11)
Yeah Tom, but is that one just chosen at random and representative of all the guitars? Ron

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 15:14:31)
quote: is that one just chosen at random and representative of all the guitars? That I have no idea. I'm sure Paco, just like you and I would have picked out one of the best as his guitar. I'm sure there are some better than others just like with any other maker.

Ron.M -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 15:43:36)
Tom, Of course you are right there amigo, actually I was starting to argue the point for argument's sake, but I suppose these are the sort of questions that I would ask myself if I was considering purchasing one. Actually I've tried the guitars of some top Flamenco players (after the concert etc) and found them to be remarkably "ordinary". Nice guitars but no magical qualities. So probably the biggest influence over tone, projection etc is the player! Paco is certainly right in setting up a guitar business and getting the best milage out of his work and reputation. I wonder whether the others will follow his idea with their own businesses and we'll have the "Tomatito Guitar" and the "Amigo Especial". Definitely worth cashing in on. cheers Ron

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 15:56:27)
Actually Ron there already is La Guitarra Tomatito. It is built by Juan Miguel Gonzalez. A builder from Almeria who's guitars are very similar to those of Gerundino. JMG's guitars are exceptional! http://www.tomatito.com/ingles/inicio.htm click on Constructor of guitars.

eslastra -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 16:05:35)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Zurdo Actually Ron there already is La Guitarra Tomatito. It is built by Juan Miguel Gonzalez. A builder from Almeria who's guitars are very similar to those of Gerundino. JMG's guitars are exceptional! http://www.tomatito.com/ingles/inicio.htm click on Constructor of guitars. El Z Wasn't there also a 'Manolo San Lucar' guitar, I can't exactly recall which website I saw it in.

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 16:33:03)
quote: Wasn't there also a 'Manolo San Lucar' guitar, I can't exactly recall which website I saw it in Really? I never knew that. Ramirez would seen like the obvious maker to have one. I know that Sanlucar has a Valeriano Bernal "Embrujo" model cedar/Indian and Bernal sometimes uses this to promote that guitar but other than that I've never come across a Manolo Sanlucar guitar. Interesting.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 18:20:06)
I don't have a PDL model, but I do have a Vicente Carillo blanca, and from what I heard these are almost exactly the same. My guitar is not ordinary and it is not overpriced. It has great playability, good volume, good blanca tone, and is gorgeous. My friend who had a Conde loved it so much he said he didn't want to put it down. Also lots of people have told me my guitar was "fast"--that they could play faster on it than normal. Pretty good qualities for a guitar endorsed by Paco, I would say! All of the good players who have played my guitar have complimented it and told me that it was an extraordinary value. Of course, I matter more than them and I like the guitar very much.

eslastra -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 19:22:39)
quote: ORIGINAL: El Zurdo quote: Wasn't there also a 'Manolo San Lucar' guitar, I can't exactly recall which website I saw it in Really? I never knew that. Ramirez would seen like the obvious maker to have one. I know that Sanlucar has a Valeriano Bernal "Embrujo" model cedar/Indian and Bernal sometimes uses this to promote that guitar but other than that I've never come across a Manolo Sanlucar guitar. Interesting. El Z, Now that I think about it, I don't think there was an actual 'Manolo' model, but that his name was used to promote the instruments. I don't recall they were built by V. Bernal though. I'll have to do some searching around. It was on one of the commercial flamenco webisites, a site similar to flameno-world.com.

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 9 2004 20:45:49)
quote: El Z, Now that I think about it, I don't think there was an actual 'Manolo' model, but that his name was used to promote the instruments. I don't recall they were built by V. Bernal though. I'll have to do some searching around. It was on one of the commercial flamenco webisites, a site similar to flameno-world.com. You know, now that you say this I kind of recall the same thing but I can't remember the name of the maker. It wasn't a Bernal. Bernal's "Embrujo" is a pretty good negra though. It's one of his 1a models made by him. So Eddie, how many guitars do you own? I hear you have some pretty top models. Among them, DeVoe and Conde right?

Jim Opfer -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 10 2004 10:58:59)
Eddie, On Manolo's newest CD (can't recall the name, the one with Carmen Linares) he's pictured on the cover with his guitar, I don't recognise the headstock and tried to find it on the web, but no joy. On the cover notes however, the guitar maker is listed as being Ramirez (grandfather)? A bit strange as the headstock is definately not a normal Ramirez. Cheers Jim.

Jerzy -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 4:03:45)
Hi Everybody: Well, this is the never ending story about the PDL guitar, but I'll jump in: My guitar is already two years with me, and as Michel points is a very fast guitar. What I would coment, friends of mine liked it-they play flamenco for living, one of them had a chance to play with Serranito in a concert a couple of years ago- and he liked it very much. One of the things some one has to bear in mind is that a truly new-never played guitar doesn't sounds like any one's rather played guitar. Opening up deserves some time, playing and lots of patience. It happened 16 years ago with my Conde, 4 years ago with my Andaluzian -which by the way you can see it on the DVD Francisco Sanchez when he goes out to the beach at his house in Playa del Carmen- my PDL which at this time has an increadible robust sound, and my very new guitar -which was constructed specially for me to my specs- and was given to me two months ago. All my guitars at the begining sound NEW, they have to be played a lot to bring out what they have in their own potential, beleive me. My PDL guitar -as many of you recall is a negra- I have sat with classicals and it never sounded like a classical with tap plates, even when it was brand new. It has developed very strong trebles adn a very flamenco character, maybe a little like modern flamenco guitars are like -on my beleive-. The diference might reside also on the type of construction, wether it is build on the madrid school -thick soundboards- or the granada school -thinner soundboards- it makes -IMHO- a big difference among them. The thing is someone has to have in mind what sound does somebody is looking for and then search for it within different luthiers. As allways, the taste is differrent as in food. Some time you want a "New York Stake" or maybe somebody wants to have a "Rib Eye", so.........I'm geting a bit hungry and I'll have some dinner[:)] Saludos a Todos!!!!

eslastra -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 7:48:45)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer Eddie, On Manolo's newest CD (can't recall the name, the one with Carmen Linares) he's pictured on the cover with his guitar, I don't recognise the headstock and tried to find it on the web, but no joy. On the cover notes however, the guitar maker is listed as being Ramirez (grandfather)? A bit strange as the headstock is definately not a normal Ramirez. Cheers Jim. I haven't seen that CD cover photo, but I'd believe the guitar in the recording would most likely be his Ramirez. As you mentioned, the Ramirez headstock has a pretty distinct look. The guitar in the photo could have just been one that was available for the photo shoot. But then I've heard that Manolo was playing a different guitar these days, but I haven't heard which make. I've known that some guitarists use different guitars for recordings from the ones they play at gigs or take on tour.

eslastra -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 7:58:51)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jerzy Opening up deserves some time, playing and lots of patience. It happened 16 years ago with my Conde, 4 years ago with my Andaluzian -which by the way you can see it on the DVD Francisco Sanchez when he goes out to the beach at his house in Playa del Carmen- Hey Jerzy, So that was your guitar? I thought it looked quite familiar, I noticed the headstock and the wood pattern, but I couldn't recall where else I had seen it. Did PdL play it and what did he think of it?

Jim Opfer -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 16:36:35)
Hi Eddie, No, I don't believe that the guitar on the cover is just any guitar handy at the time for the shoot. These things are important and Manolo is also pictured inside the sleve with Carmen Linares playing the same guitar, You'd have to see the CD to understand what I mean. I'd be really interested to know more about the instrument. Cheers Jim.

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 17:04:08)
Jim, I believe the name of that album is Locura de brisa y trino. Here are some pictures with that same guitar I believe. I can't quite make out the head design so I don't know who it is. http://www.flamenco-world.com/artists/sanlucar/sanlucar.htm

Miguel de Maria -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 17:09:50)
Jerzy, good to hear from you. Any speculation on the difference between how the negra and the blanca would sound? Or have you heard anything?

Patrick -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 11 2004 18:31:24)
Elzudo, I saw that article a couple of weeks ago and noticed the same thing. It is diffidently not his Ramirez. It does look to be a cedar top. His more recent recordings don't sound anything like his Ramirez to me. My Ramirez, that was Eddie's, sounds identical to the one he plays on Carlos Saura's Flamenco video. Pat

Jerzy -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 12 2004 3:27:19)
quote: Hey Jerzy, So that was your guitar? I thought it looked quite familiar, I noticed the headstock and the wood pattern, but I couldn't recall where else I had seen it. Did PdL play it and what did he think of it? Hi Eddie!: well about the andalusian that I have, yes Paco played it and Al Dimeola has the exact copy of the guitar that I have. He said for this guitars: "Las guitarras Andalusian es lo mejor que visto y oido hace tiempo, tienen unos colores tímbricos muy sonoros y dulces" signed PDL. So as you can see, and I don't know, he liked that guitar as well, even though he is not using it publicly. Remember, Paco has lots of guitars and just imagine how many he gets for free from unknown luthiers, just for trying them and then say that the guitar has been pleyed by the Maestro and that he owns one, so my beleive now, and after resently geting one very fine guitar made for me to my own specs and needs and matching to what I would like to hear from a guitar, The truth is that by the moment, and having my other fine guitars to compare, I would go for the road of better finding a fine luthier and show what you relly need (type of sound, measurments, sound color, etc.) that you want to get from the instrument and trust your own instincts doing so. Also you feel different because the guitar was really made for you, rather than a standard made guitar targeted to an average needs of a market. Also you feel that the guitar is unique and -perhaps psichologichly- the guitar really fits your own needs. Saludos

Jerzy -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 12 2004 3:48:46)
quote: Any speculation on the difference between how the negra and the blanca would sound? Or have you heard anything? Hi Miguel: Wel I just got to nigth my "Cositas Buenas" Album and heard it just once so I'm in the process of trying to match sound differences between my PDL negra and the PDL blanca. From what I hear my PDL sounds closer to the Lester on track 5 -due that both are negras- but I beleive Paco's Lester is indian and mine is brazilian. What I would say that the sound of my PDL is rather closer to a dry sound and so it seems to be Paco's PDL blanca, but so far I'm not entirelly sure yet I have to hear more. Well my thoughts of course and also quite arguable.

Jim Opfer -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 14 2004 11:42:42)
Tom, Yes, that's it. I have the CD and I made a sketch of the headstock to try to find it on the internet, but no joy. It's from a mystery luthier although as I said, the sleeve credits the luthier and is says: Las Guitarras: una de jose ramirez (padre) y otra diseno sanlucar I don't hable espanol, so might be you can unscramble? Cheers Jim.

TANúñez -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 14 2004 12:42:28)
quote: Las Guitarras: una de jose ramirez (padre) y otra diseno sanlucar One is a Jose Ramirez, father, so maybe Jose III built it and the other is a Sanlucar design. Maybe he designed this guitar and had it built, but by whom? I must know!

Jim Opfer -> RE: PdL Guitars (Feb. 14 2004 18:21:00)
Tom, Well there you have it, he designed his own guitar, thanks for the translation. This must be the one featured in the pics. Like you, I must know more. Cheers Jim.

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