Playing to non aficionados

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paco picado -> Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 18:24:53)
I have played some solo flamenco guitar at the odd folk, open mic nights around Lancashire,in the last few weeks, playing bulerias, tarrantos etc, even though I played quite well. The audience was less than appreciative, I could see big ? marks over their heads. One person said to me,” why does your stuff not have a melody”, and a comment after I played a Tarrantos, "why do you keep stopping and starting" during the piece, and “why do u keep making knocking sounds on the front of your guitar”, meaning Golpies. LOL The organiser of the event, a former member of 'The Houghton Weavers', folk group said, thanks for coming, but nothing u played made any musical sense to me. I have learnt my lesson not to waste my time again. Cheers Dave

duende -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 18:27:40)
sometimes you need to know what your hearing to be able to appreciate it.. i guess thats the case here. they obviusly compared your music to guitar music they know and then you came of as realy odd...knocking on the guitar and all[:D][:D]

flamencoguru -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 19:40:04)
I wouldn't necessarily say you wasted your time. When I perform for an "non aficionado" audience, I usually educated them a bit in flamenco..... I give a small talk before each piece. I find that it really helps because they can anticipate what they will be hearing and it will make them feel like they know something. Un saludo, Errol

Mark2 -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 20:24:09)
Interesting topic. My first teacher taught me and others how to do concerts for non aficianados in particular. He was extremely successful at it. I also had a lessor level of success at it. You have to provide the verbal explanations, and you need to be entertaining while doing it. You also have to select/arrange music that they have a chance to relate to, and include at least some music they might know. A bulerias without a verbal intro will probably not work. My teacher told me the verbal was as important as the music. I was pretty happy doing this for a number of years. Made some pretty good money, played some very cool gigs. But then I got serious about learning to play for dance. I studied more modern playing. I kinda let my solo chops slide. But I learned how to follow really syncopated dance steps, and many of the little tricks one needs to play for dance. Learned some really tricky falsetas and syncopated compas stuff. Became more interested in how to play for singing. At a certain point, I'd was playing stuff in a class that in some cases only the teacher could hear and apreciate. All good, I'd made a lot of progress toward what actual flamenco players were doing and knowing. I realized a dream by playing gigs with singers and dancers. But, I had reduced the size of potential admirers, fans, clients, gigs to almost none. I was playing for aficianados and dancers. Trouble is , there aren't that many of them. Which brings up the question: Save for personal enjoyment, is there any point in playing flamenco guitar in a place where there is no cultural context? I mean, in my town, which is a fairly major US city, there is a pretty small community of people to play for. Even less opportunity to earn money. I couldn't go back to the "friendly flamenco" gig. I felt I had already taken that gig as far as I could and had no desire to resurrect Malaguena by Lecuona, etc. I spent some time doing background music gigs playing sig, bulerias, etc, but realized I was really not doing the best job for the audience. I don't play flamenco much anymore, just for personal enjoyment, which, since I don't play that much, doesn't give me much enjoyment. I've talked to other players in my area who have expressed that serious pursuit of flamenco is ultimately a dead end for people outside Spain. I tend to agree. Comments?

JBASHORUN -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 20:52:39)
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The way I see it is, if, out of 100 people, at least one single person likes what you have played, then your time has not been wasted. Don't forget, Flamenco is not really "their" culture, so they have no "obligation" to appreciate it or even TRY and understand it. If they make the effort, good for them. If not, don't beat yourself up, just move on to an audience that does. So speaks the guy who has never played a gig in his life! Jb

paco picado -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 20:55:14)
I agree totally. My travels in Andalucia, has been reflecting something my music teacher said at school. Don’t go into ethnic music, because an audience will never take seriously a performer that is not form the country of origin. And I think of all the people that were once well known in British guitar circles, like Ian Davis of which I think the depression of being an English Flamenco guitarist, trying to make a buck in very competitive Spanish market, caused the stress that ultimality led to his cancer. And Philip John Lee, who in the early 70s had a recording contract with EMI, the latter is living in a one room council flat on the outskirts of London, eking a living, accompanying the odd dance class. I think at sometime in the mid 80's I chose the wrong music, but having said that, music in general has reached a point, where everything has been done, nothing one can composed today that can be called original. and the difficulties as Alain Faucher is experiencing with Affedis, to me shows, flamenco is t an all time low, as far as Europe. Its still being kept alive in the Tabernas in Andalucia, but it has no future, for an aspiring musician in my view. Cheers Paco

n85ae -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 20:59:47)
I can count on one hand the number of people I know in day to day life who like Flamenco (beyond Gipsy Kings). EVEN if I have a minor bandsaw accident in the shop, I'm still likely to have enough finger's for all of them. I went and saw PDL, a few years ago, and plainly recall hearing the women in the seat behind me moaning and groaning about, how "this isn't real Flamenco ..." Jeff.

John O. -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 21:39:11)
Certain things work, like plenty of tremolos and blowing the crowd away with technique they've never seen before (if it's a croud of musicians). Keep away from things like tarantas and rondenas unless it's almost all tremolo. Otherwise like a couple have said, explaining and anecdotes help. I'll sometimes explain rhythms before I play, then I watch to see if the mouths of an audience are counting to 12 silently [:D] If it's a croud in a party mood who know nothing about flamenco, they'll most likely make fun of it...

JBASHORUN -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 21:45:57)
quote: If it's a croud in a party mood who know nothing about flamenco, they'll most likely make fun of it... In that case, just play a bunch of Rumbas, use plenty of rasguedos, and shout "Ole!" every few minutes... it worked for the Gypsy Kings... jb

paco picado -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 21:58:36)
Thats what I eventually did playing Lola, Paco Pena, seemed to go down well, but I hate the piece, reminds me of straw donkeys etc. I think I will put Flamenco on the back boiler for a while, Cheers dave

Ron.M -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 22:39:19)
Great and provokative post there Dave! I think this is one for not an immediate, off-the-cuff response, but for something more considered. But here goes anyway...[:D] The heyday of Flamenco in Britain, was definitely post Manitas de Plata. Now we're talking late 1960's, when the general feel amongst the audience was to reach out...to explore different sounds, different cultures. Everybody was getting high and going to Ravi Shankar concerts and Poetry readings....[:D] The current audience are now mainly Thatcher's Children, who are used to getting what they want, when they want. The power of the purchaser... There is no room for serendipity now... "Narrowcasting" is now the fashion. You decide what you like, then, demand your own narrow choice of entertainment and if you can't get it here or there, then you can download it to your iPod off the Internet, or subscribe to a TV channel specialising in your own particular taste and party on. So if you go to a Folk Club, you expect to hear the Folk Music that is normally presented in that club and nothing else. If it's not then you have a reason to complain. If you want to appeal to them, then you have to lighten up your act by playing what the audience THINK is Flamenco. But then where do you draw the line? Without selling any principles you have? Do you stay with what you know to be good stuff and starve, or descend into the "Rumbero" culture, just to keep the wolf away from the door? Interesting what you said about Ian Davies and Philip John Lee, both Paco Peña's star pupils from back then. Maybe old Philip is really quite happy with his lot...who knows?? cheers, Ron Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

JBASHORUN -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 22:43:53)
quote: I think I will put Flamenco on the back boiler for a while Aw, come on Dave... Flamenco's not something you do just for the recognition or to please the general public. You do it because you like... or LOVE the artform. If you're the only person in your area that actually likes Flamenco, then play it to yourself in your bedroom if you have to. I think they say "cast not your pearls before swine"... in other words, don't waste time giving a good thing to those who don't appreciate it. But if Flamenco is really a part of you, then it will stay with you through the darkest nights. On a side note, I saw Gerardo Nunez and also Joaquin Cortes recently, and the crowd LOVED IT!!! I guess it helps if you are top of your game, and a "true Spaniard", but there's still a few Flamenco appreciaters out there, if you ask me... Jb

Ailsa -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 23:24:56)
Hi Dave, That must be really dispiriting, to feel the audience just didn't appreciate what you were playing. And that's a shame because even if someone is playing music you don't understand, you can usually appreciate their skill, the hours of practice they must have put in. Their loss really, though I expect that doesn't make you feel any better. I think there still is an interest in the music of other cultures. I go to Womad every year, and the crowds always appreciate whatever's played, no matter how exotic and strange. Enrique Morente went down a storm, and that wasn't just because he's a famous name - it was because he has a rare talent and the crowd recognised that. I think flamenco is quite sophisticated in terms of its rhythmic structure and harmonies, and if you spend your life listening to boy band pop, it probably sounds completely off the wall! quote: ORIGINAL: paco picado The organiser of the event, said, thanks for coming, but nothing u played made any musical sense to me. Does the man not have any manners?![&:] Perhaps you just haven't found the right place to play yet Dave. Don't give up. [:)] Ailsa

Mark2 -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 23:25:35)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M Do you stay with what you know to be good stuff and starve, or descend into the "Rumbero" culture, just to keep the wolf away from the door? cheers, Ron HAHA -descend eh? Sounds just a little like Bream talking about flamenco dannnnccccers.

Ron.M -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 30 2007 23:42:53)
quote: Sounds just a little like Bream talking about flamenco dannnnccccers. Nah Mark! You mean Dahhnnncers! [:D] cheers, Ron

wiseguy493 -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 0:43:11)
I'm still fairly new to flamenco performance, and quite the mediocre player LOL but people still appreciate my music if I present it in the right way. When I play to non-afficionados I make it into a story, telling a bit about the background of each piece before playing it. I like to start with a Rumba just because it doesn't sound abnormal at all to most people. I usually like to follow with Soleares, and then a Farruca which does not sound too alien either. After that they're usually more open to whatever I play and are looking forward to hearing something different and then the more alien it sounds, the better

Ricardo -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 6:30:12)
Hmmm. I say, in general to the whole thread, no way. If you play what ever it is you play, and you play GOOD with feeling, people like it even if they don't understand it. If people are not listening, then it is because you are not loud enough, or they did not pay enough to shut the **** up and listen. Pretty simple really. Get a louder sound system or charge more money and people WILL appreciate what you do. Ricardo

ToddK -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 6:36:26)
quote: Hmmm. I say, in general to the whole thread, no way. If you play what ever it is you play, and you play GOOD with feeling, people like it even if they don't understand it. If people are not listening, then it is because you are not loud enough, or they did not pay enough to shut the **** up and listen. Pretty simple really. Get a louder sound system or charge more money and people WILL appreciate what you do. As usual, you are correct good sir[:)]

John O. -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 8:03:38)
Yeah, nobody will pay to go see something they wouldn't shut the ** up for - one thing comes from the other. A really bad situation is when somebody pays you to play at their party and the people who attend the party didn't pay and won't shut the up or even applaud. I had this once and after the break the hostess had to inform people that there was a performance going on. After that things went better. I could have turned up the amp but after having already started playing for a croud < 50 people I felt like it would come across as "SHUT THE ** UP!"

XXX -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 9:18:53)
Ricardo, people can be very ignorant towards other cultures. If they dont listen, it might be that its not because the volume is too low, but because they simply dont like it. Some people just dont like PdL, but moreso Ottmar Liebert. If you dont like to fake yourself by playing flamingo only to please the audience which doesnt accept flamenco, then simply dont do it. You cannot change peoples tastes, they have to develop them themselves. It is REALLY NOT an exaggeration. If they dislike it because its foreign, unusual, to complex, then they will also not like it, if you are the best player in the world, or if they hear PdL playing. And there are not few people, who think like that about. Its very relevant and happens to me almost everyday lol.

JBASHORUN -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 9:58:38)
I'm with Deniz on this one. You could play Flamenco through a set of Marshall stacks and some people still wouldn't appreciate it. And in fact, if I went a Ravi Shankar concert, didn't understand it and he decided just to play LOUDER to try and solve the problem, I think this would p*ss me off. I guess some musicians are good at "educating" their audiences and others are not. But a lot depends on how open-minded the audience is in the first place... Jb

John O. -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 10:17:03)
Well yeah I think the point is if you charge people money they'll think about whether they come to see you play or not. If I was sitting in a bar expecting some rock music and Jennifer Lopez came out and started dancing I'd probably be a bit annoyed myself, even if she is a great dancer. If you're going to an open mic though you should expect on the one side some negative input (not everyone can like everything) and at the same time expect a bit of open-mindedness from a croud who has come to see anything anyone is willing to share. Whenever I hear something like "That did not make sense" I just answer "Yeah you need to understand it before you can enjoy it". What else can you say?

XXX -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 11:06:18)
I would never be annoyed if Jennifer Lopez would dance in front of me. Never. [8D] Yes charging money or more money would result in that those people who dont like flamenco anyway would not come (probably they would also stay absent if it was for free). But flamenco is so unpopular, i dont think charging would change that. Gerardo is giving free concert in Chicago. Btw. it is a difference if someone says: "i dont like it because its too fast/too rythmical", or if someone says "that doesnt make any (musical) sense". Latter statement wants to say that flamenco is not a real music, like what they are used to from western music, i.e. classic, folk, rock, pop. This has NOTHING to do with muscial understanding or a musical statement, and everything with a cultural superiority. Because even if you dont like it, it is obvious that its music. One should be careful with such statements.

paco picado -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 12:39:50)
Thanks all. Ye it true the Golden age of Accoustic guitar was in the 60s 70, and 80s, whether, Classica, Folk Flamenco . Classical guitar, seems to be suffering from Thatchers syndrom, At one time Julian Bream appered on Parkinson, I think maybe Paco Pena cant remember, But Classical guitar and subsquent oppertiunities for Classical guitrists is at an a time low, with virtually no exposure anymore on TV, or Radio Cheers Paco

John O. -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 13:04:10)
quote: I would never be annoyed if Jennifer Lopez would dance in front of me. Never. Yeah, but at least get some good music behind it! If not flamenco, maybe White Zombie or something. And get a pole for her to swing on [:D]

Florian -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 15:12:20)
Great interesting post Dave everything makes a difference , the timing of when u went on, the sound system, the mood of the club, the lighting, was it too early in the night before people were relaxed with a drink in theyr hands, was it too late in the night when all people wanted to do is dance, the age groups the nationality. For example my friend works for virgin Airlines, they had a xmass party, asked me if i wanted to play there, knowing the time, sorroundings and age group i said no. The reason : Party was a stand up even , in a club, with a DJ, dance floor, most of the Guests were young 22 - 34 Emploees. Now this people could be your best audience in different sorroundings, on a different day but because of the time and sorroundings of the party , i know all this people would wanna do is drink, and dance to club music. Another friend of mine then took the Gig, they acctually do some really cool music, its kind of Pop covers, but its not too dancy, I remember sitting there and cringing with embarassement for them because it went down so bad at such a bad time in the night when all the people wanted to do , was talk , drink, be silly and dance. I remember security came up to my friend and told him " I think you should stop mate " after just 4 songs lol. it was horrible, i felled so bad for my friend, but as i explained to him, it had nothing to do with him, just had to pick his time, audience and sorroundings better. theres nothing for sure, i mean many gigs that should have been recived bad, surrprised me and were good, and many i tought would be recived great went the other way lol. so u have no way of ever knowing for sure how something is going down, but there are some litlle factors that are worth considerring before saying yes to a gig, if this kind of thing gets you down. We have a running joke with our dance school, whenever we do something and its a letdown , we always say " Well... Its a paid rehersal" lol its funny because we been saying it for years, we must be the most well rehersed group by now [:D] you probably allready know what i said, so i am not trying to teach you anything, it was more about me telling the Virgin Airlines story [:D]

John O. -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 16:05:51)
That's actually a great story that helped me out. I went to this party I was writing about expecting to play some deep flamenco to oohs and aahs, got in, saw the people with the cocktails, heard the samba music in the background and thought "uh, oh..." having a feeling what they expected to hear. They went wild when the hostess sang the showtunes after I was done and I left just before the classical pianist came in, needless to say my set didn't fit in...

Florian -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 16:27:00)
[:)] Thanks mate, i am glad, yes i know exactly what u mean, thats why when discussing a gig, its a good idea to get an idea on they idea of flamenco [:D] might save you having to sound like Gipsy kings on your own.[:D][:D][:D] I am sure everyones got a million storyes of people convinced they know flamenco and they start talking about, Jose Feliziano, Armik, etc. plus there's that group of people whos line of thinking is something like this : "if you hear nylon string guitar in a recording it must be spanish, spanish - flamenco same thing [:)]" but its not theyr responsibility, i used to think it was, to be educated in flamenco before they hire flamenco, but now i dont think so anymore, they just having a party, u are studying it, its one night for them its your hole life for you, its your job to make sure they know what to expect.

Mark2 -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 18:01:09)
Florian, you are so right, there are times and places that are more appropriate than others. And every element is a factor. And Ricardo is also right about the proper sound , as well as the quality of the playing. I truly believe that if PdL was unknown and did some of the background music gigs I was ignored at , they would have turned into concerts as soon as he ripped off his first picado. It would really bust my bubble to find out that wasn't true. As far as money, the more you get paid does not always mean attention. It really depends on the gig. I've done open mikes for free and had great success, and I've been paid 1,000 and been ignored. I think in a certain type of gig(high end corporates in particular) the more they pay you, the less they react. I like to call this "too rich to clap" It's like they take pride in paying 3k for a four piece, then ignore them. The other gig I've come up with a clever name for is the "Wooden Indian" gig. That's where they want to have a guy sitting in a corner holding a guitar, making some noise, but not too much. Sometimes in these gigs people will listen, and sometimes not. I think I could set up a wooden Indian, and have a cd player behind him, then come back three hours later and get the check-it would make little difference. I do believe the better you play, the better your sound, the better chance you will reach more people, but that's not assured, IMO. It's well paid practice either way.

paco picado -> RE: Playing to non aficionados (May 31 2007 18:56:19)
Hi Florin. I played in a Flamenco competition, at Ricardo de la Jluana,Almunecar, a year or so ago. I played a trad Buleria, and they loved it, although is was mainly Cante competition, standing on tables etc,.won a crate of wine. Some of the biggest Flamenco artists and aficianados from the area where there. I went to a British pub afterwards, and they asked me to stop playing, saying "we are not a Spanish pub, and we dont want to encorage Spanish people to come in, especially Gitanos" Even though it was a musicions pub, lots of Jam nights etc. Sorry for the spelling Cheers Alberto Alzapua

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