Fan Bracing (Full Version)

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krichards -> Fan Bracing (May 29 2007 19:28:53)

What's the basic difference between the bracing on a Flamenco and on a classical?
and is a negra just the same as a blanca but made of rosewood?



johnguitar -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 29 2007 23:31:23)

There are no rules. I have seen great flamenco guitars with a Torres bracing. However, since you asked here is my flamenca. The light is a cold fluorescent bulb. My classical is a seven-strut fan converging at the 12th fret.

John Ray



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



krichards -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 30 2007 22:00:09)

The reason I'm asking is because i'm going to make a flamenco negra soon. But i can't really get my head round the difference between a negra and a classical, apart from the action and a golpe?

is there any difference? well i hope that my negra sounds flamenco. I have a beautiful classical made of rosewood and spruce, made by Victor Anglada, a luthier at the Raimundo factory. Its very loud, although quite small, its great for classical music but not so good for flamenco because of the amazing sustain and loud bell-like sound.
I also have a blanca made by Amalio Burguet which is very flamenco, But the only real difference between these two guitars is the wood for back and sides.
Everything else is very similar.



Ricardo -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 31 2007 6:57:35)

quote:

is there any difference? well i hope that my negra sounds flamenco.


The difference for me as a player is the BRIDGE. It has to be set up lower so the bone is not high, yet the action not TOO low that is buzzes BADLY. I can play flamenco on a classical, so long as it has comfortable bridge set up.

Also, some guitars lose a lot of sound quality when the tap plate is glued on. I don't know the secret, but you need to make a guitar top so that AFTER the tap plate gets glued on, the guitar STILL sounds very clear and responsive.

Ricardo



TANúñez -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 31 2007 14:11:03)

Besides a lower bridge, you need to make sure you have the correct top thickness. This is very important. Classical and Flamenco guitars are two different animals.



flamenco_9 -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 31 2007 19:17:17)

hii Tom
I hop you enlight us abou this issue
what the difference in top thickness and braces
we know that the body is shalower and the bridge is lower in flamenco
but what about top thickness and braces
thanks



TANúñez -> RE: Fan Bracing (May 31 2007 20:14:22)

Hi flamenco_9.

So far, for me, knowing exactly how thick the top should be has been the hardest part of building. An experienced luthier will thickness his tops and listen to the tap tones. He will also flex the top as a way to measure it's stiffness. Experience will tell him when to stop thicknessing and if he should continue to remove wood. This can't really be taught. It must be learned.

A top left too thick will be somewhat restricted. Not percusive enough. No punch, etc.etc. Too thin and it will be floppy. Weak notes and unresponsive.

There was a very good article I found online about this somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.



flamenco_9 -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 1:58:31)

thanks Tom for this enlightment
wish you find that article



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 11:23:37)

quote:

we know that the body is shalower and the bridge is lower in flamenco
but what about top thickness and braces


There are no rules. Most of my classicals are smaller than my flamencos. I build mainly Romanillos classicals. Also, a Romanillos classical should have more or less the same to thickness as a flamenco (around2,1mm on a good and stiff spruce top)

The picture of John Rays bracing shows a very traditional bracing system more or less like some Barbero plans I´ve seen, but with parrallel harmonic bars.
I build with 7 fans, 2 closing struts. Sometimes I angle the lower harmonic bar and sometimes its parrallel with the upper harmonic bar.

In general, you brace more parrallel on a flamenco than on a classical because you want less cross grain stiffness, making the guitar more percussive and with less high harmonics. This has to do with what John calls "converging at the 12th fret" Flamencos might never converge or might converge around first fret.

You can use classical bracing systems and make a very flamenco sounding guitar (The guitar Emilio Maya plays in audio and video uploads has a bracing system close to a classical!!!). I will now repeat myself: "its not in the systems and the milimeters, but in the balance of the instrument"



krichards -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 14:56:08)

No Rules?
I'm a Physics teacher and I know that the sound is not random. There must be some rules.
But I know that a guitar is a complex thing and there are many variables involved.
But when you are talking about the difference between a negra and a classical its not a question of materials. It must be down to design and construction and the way its played.

So i think Ricardo is dead right about the bridge because that changes the way the guitar is played. The same applies to the action.

I think the body depth will make a difference, and this is generally less deep on a flamenco. I reckon a deeper body will enhance the bass because the stationary wave between top and back will have a lower fundamental frequency. The shallower body of a flamenco should enhance higher notes and this may account for the brighter sound of a flamenco.

I think the fan bracing must be significant but I can't find any convincing theories about this anywhere. What Anders says makes some sense to me though.

But the whole thing is just so complicated to work out from first principles. So we have to fall back on experience. By now, after many thousands of good guitars have been made and played we should know most of the answers.

Are there still any secrets?



el ted -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 15:08:45)

.



Per Hallgren -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 15:16:00)

quote:

Are there still any secrets?


I don't think there are any big secrets, only acquired experience. When Anders say that there are no rules I think he mean that it is the result that counts and that there are many ways to get that result. Hopefully he will correct me if I have put wrong words in his mouth.[:)] One mistake we often make when talking about guitars is to assume that the string cares about what kind of bracing system we use. The string only cares about resistance.



Sherman -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 15:37:48)

Interesting!!



krichards -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 16:48:25)

Thats five minutes longer than many people. Well Done!

Now why noy try another 5 minutes sometime?



Per Hallgren -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 1 2007 17:15:18)

Guitarmaking and science have a problematic relation. Guitars, as everything else, is of course obeying the laws of physics. No one is denying that. But, and that is a big BUT, science is about making a theory and making experiments to prove or not prove that the theory is right. If the experiments are showing the same results as the theory predicted science take a small leap forward and our paradigm of the world is extended. (You know what I am saying, even if my english perhaps use the wrong words asociated with the theory of science...). The problem with guitars and science is, IMO, that guitars are so sensitive to the small differences in the material that it is almost impossible to repeat an experiment. Which of course gives that science is not really helping much. Most guitarmakers know at least some of the usual stuff concerning the laws of acoustics, and that is of value, but that can only be used as a tool to interprete what happens in a guitar that you have in front of you. It is of little value to give hints for the next guitar since the difference between a good guitar and a great guitar is beyond what we can measure. Our only guidance is our experience and intuition, of course within the frames of the laws of physics.

Phuh! I am terrible in writing about these things. Anders, please explain what I just tried to say...[8|]



krichards -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 2 2007 16:41:40)

Don't worry ...this makes perfect sense to me. Guitars are so complex and applying physics to guitar making should help but, in practice, it seems too complicated.

But Anders and Tom and John and Per have all made many guitars. My guess is you have all stuck pretty much to the Torres tradition?

Have any of you tried something radical? like maybe a simple square checkerboard bracing, or concentric circles?



Sherman -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 2 2007 21:23:05)

Per, Let me just say you express yourself very well, you have no need to feel insecure using english. And thanks for the intriguing discussion.
Sherman



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Fan Bracing (Jun. 4 2007 11:12:03)

quote:

Anders, please explain what I just tried to say...


I´m far away from home, in Huelva looking for a new home and a new workshop, anyways, I get what you say and I agree and I only want to add that problems are often something we create in our little heads, and even though studying physics can be helpfull, it can also make you focus to much on irrellevant things. You cannot calculate wood. It changes every milimeter.



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