RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Full Version)

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Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 8:51:18)

quote:

this is absolutely nonsence!
So according to your theory we human beeings are all killers


yes, why is that so hard to belive ? we eat beef and chiken, and we dont exactly wait for them to die of natural causes, or do the anymals that dont wear clothes and play flamenco dont count..[:)]

this is not my theory this is history , name a greate powerful empire that hasent attaked another country ?[:D]

btw. does the Ottoman Empire ring a bell ? [:)] Romania really got screwed troughout history, they were attaked by every empire, Austro Hungarian, Roman, Ottoman, Natzis.

I am saying that the strong will always pray on the weak. u make of it what ever u like, i know its not very nice but we not talking about what people should do and how the world should be we are talking about reality , of what people do and how they are, and even if you are 1 in a million.
If u leave in a country that never invaded anyone its only because they not strong enough to do it, or its not within theyr interest , or they do it the "white collar way"(financial, sanctions, etc).

I know sometimes its hard to see clearly when you are patriotic ( and very hard to do when you are in the midlle of it), do you really wanna see truth or just want others to see your truth.
pretend that u have no ties with any countries and be objective and look at it as an outsider.

not talking about any country now, just talking about a general picture of world polotics and history.



John O. -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 9:32:49)

Human beings are instinctively all killers. How many years have humans been on the earth and how many of those have been relatively peaceful?

Humans today that are peaceful are because of upbringing, which is a product of the society we live in, which in turn was formed by religion and social structures created by governments. The problem is that in many cases while religion and patriotism keep the people peaceful amongst themselves, it causes them to kill OTHER PEOPLE!

Public execution (who of you saw the Saddam footage?), stoning (join in the fun!), slavery and human trafficking, torture and burning of so-called "witches", hanging of blacks in the US because whites believed they weren't human (may I remind you that wasn't very long ago), the holocaust, the iron curtain, just last year Abu Ghraib... How could you think human beings are NOT killers?



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 9:45:54)

Alas, John and Florian are right. the winners write the history books and no-one remembers the losers. And human beings ARE natural killers that have just been removed artificially from the killing process. Such is life.

Please do read the info in the link I posted on "Game Theory" though, as it is quite relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_%28television_documentary_series%29

Tom, I'm afraid the Terrapin pic was just a stock photo, but here's some info on Terrapins:

http://www.v-e-t-s.co.uk/turtles_and_terrapins.htm

I would like one myself, but apparently I have too many pets already!

Jb



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 9:53:55)

JBASHORUN

thank you , that was very interesting reading, i hope i catch this documentary one day.



Guest -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 9:55:56)

wow this is a touchy topic, ill try a be careful. I would have to respectfully dissaggre with the human being a natural killer, rather power corrupts explains more of history for me.



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:00:30)

then u are agreeing [:)]? under the right circumstances, with the right power all are just as bad. only difference is some can and some cant.

i know its really ugly to put us all in the same pot and i am sure there are exceptions but talking general human nature and behaviour.

remember u not doing the wrong thing if everyone around you agrees with you and is encouraging you or its sold to you as patriotism. ( not in your eyes anyway)



Guest -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:03:49)

we are all human and have weaknesses, but i hate to think we are NATURAL killers. I would have a very bleak outlook on life if i beleived that. Some are more prone to do dodgy things yes and others have chemical imbalances in their brain which makes them unaturally aggressive or antisocial or what ever u wanna call it, imo.



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:17:58)

quote:

Some are more prone to do dodgy things yes and others have chemical imbalances in their brain which makes them unaturally aggressive


think of the billions of people who killed and died troughout all the wars, do you really belive they all had chemical imbalances ?

Some peoples heros are other peoples villans.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:27:18)

Dominic, its not a matter of good or bad. Its a matter of survival and power. Humans were killing animals (and other humans) from the very earliest days that we have records of. These days we are so removed from the killing process that unless you are a soldier or a butcher the killing is done on your behalf and you never even see it. But ultimately, if you strip the social pretences away from every human, he is, at heart, an animal- like any other.

Jb



Guest -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:28:00)

no, this would only explain a percentage i think. Its when one of those gets in power that things go pearshaped. If we had honest leaders and an honest system (which we dont)we would stand a chance to be civilised. As you say, the pack mentality can be dangerous. I dont think that means we were born to be killers it just means some are easily led. I do understand though your line of thought. For example, i dont think gearge bush is sane, he is a madman. He is getting close to hitler imo.



Arash -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:34:14)

I hate Darwins Evolution Theory.

We are not a bunch of wild animals gone wild.

There is big difference between animals and humans which is called "conscience".

When you do something bad then you have a bad conscience.
When you do something good then you have a good conscience.

Why are there organisations like red cross, amnesty international, etc.....?
Because there are also human beeings who have a conscience.

And the reason why we have wars, brutal injustice, etc. in the world , is because some
human beings simply DONT have any conscience.

BTW , i am not a patriot and I dont like our president.
He talks utter nonsence and is not a nice guy ......But he is the lesser of the 2 Evils!



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:40:24)

quote:

These days we are so removed from the killing process that unless you are a soldier or a butcher the killing is done on your behalf and you never even see it. But ultimately, if you strip the social pretences away from every human, he is, at heart, an animal- like any other.


I agree completly, remember noone is pointing at anyone saying you are a killer, and none of us like the idea, we all like to think that we are good people and we are, just as good or just as bad as eachother with ofcourse the exceptions of sick people.

i am talking look at as as humans and at all of our history, and present day, any more proof u could not ask for [:)]



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 10:43:15)

quote:

I hate Darwins Evolution Theory


dont know his theory , this is my own theory based on my opinion, made as a honest i possibly can look at ourselfs, and not looking at myself as florian from romania or australia but at myself as a human been, child of the world and for the sake of this exercise to make sure that my vision is not blurred or confused by nationality, race, religion, my parents ideas or Oprah Winfrey, the more i am able to lose my self identity the closer i am able to get to seeing something with wide open eyes.

quote:

When you do something bad then you have a bad conscience.
When you do something good then you have a good conscience


conscience is formulated by your idea of right or wrong, your idea of right or wrong is formulated by the society around you.

different societies have different opinions on what right or wrong is.

again , u not wrong if u dont know it. because everyone around u is telling u that u are right.

just like.. you not Lying, if you belive it

killing. some people get medals for it and some people go to jail for it, just depending on what the society around them has established as right or wrong on ofcourse on the clothes they are wearing at the time of the killing [:)]

ok, i think i am done with this [;)] anyway i dont mean to be pushy about my opinion, just kind of enjoyed this dont know why, i gues it always fun to take a honest look at myself sometimes kind of brings u right back down to earth. and always makes it a litlle harder to point your finger outwoods.

the world is in the state is in today because of people, i am a people, or is it just the other people that are bad ? i meet a few people troughout my days and a very very few bad ones, most just a hole other lot of people just like me, yet we continue to have wars.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 11:05:18)

quote:

And the reason why we have wars, brutal injustice, etc. in the world , is because some
human beings simply DONT have any conscience.


Arash, many wars are not caused by people not having a conscience, but rather differences of opinion and ideology. But you are right that there would be LESS wars if more people had a conscience, and by people, I refer mainly to the people in political power.

Jb



Guest -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 11:40:18)

STOP THE WORLD I WANNA GET OFF!!!



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Arash -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 11:46:15)



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Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 11:46:50)

lol



Guest -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 11:47:42)

it almost looks like paco[:D][:D][:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 13:42:04)

As Arash says, lets end this here. I'm not keen on monkeys, but here's a cute kitten.

Jb



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Arash -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 14:10:24)

James....Some breaking good news from our Evil president 2day: [;)]


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says 15 British naval personnel captured in the Gulf will be freed.
He repeated allegations that the British sailors and marines "invaded" Iranian waters, but said they would be freed as a "gift" to Britain.

He said the Britons would be released immediately and taken to an airport.

"They are free after this meeting and can go back to their families," Mr Ahmadinejad said.

"I ask Mr Blair: Instead of occupying the other countries, I ask Mr Blair to think about the justice, to think about the truth and work for the British people not for himself."

"Unfortunately the British government was not even brave enough to tell their people the truth, that it made a mistake," Mr Ahmadinejad said.

"We have every right to put these people on trial," he asserted.

"But I want to give them as a present to the British people to say they are all free."





Ok Happy End! Lets close this thread [;)]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 14:24:13)

Arash, if this is true, then it is a good thing. Lets hope the British government accept this "gift" in a gracious manner, and that diplomatic relations between the countries are strengthened as a result.

Jb



Arash -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 14:29:07)

James , well , it was on BBC NEWS, maybe it is lie !!! [:D][:D][:D][;)]



Rain -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 16:25:00)

quote:

If you consider wanting to "wipe Israel off the face of the earth" any less bad than Bush wanting to "rid the world of terrorism", then I guess he IS the lesser of 2 evils.


You need to educate yourself mate, then you'll have a better understanding of the FABRICATED state of Israel and once you gain a better understanding of Israel then you will understand that such a nation should be put on a HUMAN RIGHTS watch.

Then you'll begin to ask yourself why it is that BILLIONS of American( Tax Dollars) are given to them in every year. Given to an arpartheid state, a state that indulges in racism and segragation.

Yes it is in all of us this primal instict to kill, just like animals, but it is our ability to decipher from what is right and wrong that seperates us from other species.
At least when animals kill they kill to feed.

then u are agreeing ? under the right circumstances, with the right power all are just as bad. only difference is some can and some cant.

Your point is?



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 18:34:20)

Rain "mate"... you've made 101 posts on the forum so far and have managed to rack up a score of -30. Thats some accomplishment! hats off to you!

As for me needing to "educate myself", well, I don't think it takes much of an education to figure out that anyone who says that Israel should be "wiped off the face of the earth" is not a nice person.

It seems that Iran has beef with the West AND Israel now. Is there anyone Iran DOESN'T have problems with? Would you like to add some more countries to the list?

I really think we should end this discussion now. I have already said that I believe that NONE of the parties in this situation are without fault, so why keep re-iterating the point that Iran is the most innocent, peace-loving and yet victimized country in the world?

Who are you trying to convince here?

Jb



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 18:41:26)

Yes, this debate is OVER. Well and truly done to death.

See what happens... the CUTE animals are gone and replaced with SCARY ones:



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Rain -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 18:53:42)

quote:

Rain "mate"... you've made 101 posts on the forum so far and have managed to rack up a score of -30. Thats some accomplishment! hats off to you!


And your point is? Very childish. It also makes me a little sad for you jb that you consider your score an accomplishment, well good for you. Congrats and may your score increase.

As for me needing to "educate myself", well, I don't think it takes much of an education to figure out that anyone who says that Israel should be "wiped off the face of the earth" is not a nice person.

Give me your sources.

It seems that Iran has beef with the West AND Israel now. Is there anyone Iran DOESN'T have problems with? Would you like to add some more countries to the list?

You know so very little. The correct order would be Israel first and then America. The question you need to ask is how much of the world hates America and what other country has put us on their list NOW.

so why keep re-iterating the point that Iran is the most innocent, peace-loving and yet victimized country in the world?

Show me where I said that, I never stated any of that, and it is very ignorant and cowardly of you to say I did. I did however say that you are being very ignorant to World Politics.

Who are you trying to convince here?
No one mate, just trying to inform you, correct you,perhaps maybe even enlighten you.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 19:00:07)

lol, Rain... we're getting carried away here. we have some differences, but lets just call it quits. Its not much fun to keep arguing over this, and I really don't wish you any disrespect at all. in fact, I don't even KNOW you to dislike. So why don't we just stop. I've deleted any of my posts that are even remotely controversial or offensive in any way. Personally I hope the world solves its personal and political issues quickly and peacefully. If you at least agree with that, then we have something in common.

Jb



Rain -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 19:06:34)

Absolutely, lets get back to flamenco.



Florian -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 4 2007 21:02:50)

quote:

then u are agreeing ? under the right circumstances, with the right power all are just as bad. only difference is some can and some cant.

Your point is?


my point is that given half a chance anyone with power would use it, i am not saying its right, i am not sticking up for it, i am stating a point based on 2000 years of human history.

those that were able to.. did



John O. -> RE: Americans bringing democracy to Iraq! (Apr. 5 2007 8:41:06)

Humans are made to fit to their surroundings. All humans will be who you raise them to be. We do have a lot that other animals do not have, but just like with a pet dog you can raise a human being to be a Mother Theresa, Hitler or Napolean Dynamite.



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