binding method (Full Version)

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stephen hill -> binding method (Mar. 29 2007 6:48:31)

heres a jig/technique I use to glue the bindings in place , using string. Works well for me. The spanish use string, cut up inner tubes -all sorts, sometimes putting all four bindings in at the same time....(?) or at least 2. In the early days of my work in the uk I used to use masking tape.. now here in spain string is the thing!



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 7:41:05)

I agree that using strings is by far the best method, but why jigs? The builders I know here use "free style"
I used to do 2 at a time before, but I found it to be to stressy with the glue so now I only do one binding a time it only takes me a few minuts to wrap a guitar. On the photo its the left binding I glue. The wegdes in order to put extra pressure in some spots. The red guitar is a Coral Negra (roja) with cedar top.



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Per Hallgren -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 9:45:59)

Stephen, I don't know how you came to your method but I use the same as you, shown in the picture. If I glue just one binding I will damage the edge of the channel on the other side of the guitar without this jig. Since I glue the purfling in the same time (sometimes multilinear up to 7 lines depending on design) I use tape too, but mostly to line everything up. The tape is often giving a tight seam against the top or the back but the binding can sometimes being untight against the sides using tape only. The string is adding pressure and in the correct angle too.



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 11:41:33)

Per what do you have in all these drawers and are they from Ikea[:D]

These are wonderfull photos. You can see many things. Take a look at Stephens photo. He has a lot of wood prepared. He has one saw (japaneese), a small straight edge, something that looks like a chisel, and a radio. I´ve always said that a lot of tools can be nice, but they are not nescessary. LOL

On Pers photo you can see that he likes drinking Pripps[;)] (Scandinavean joke)

On my photo, well I dont know, but you can see that my walls are dirty and that my electrical instalation sucks.[X(]

You dont have to use a jig in order to not damage the other binding chanel. The one you are not gluing. You simply prepare the binding for that chanel and leave it with some tape. Then it takes the pressure from the strings.
In general its a mistake that you need a LOT of pressure when you glue. Thats why I use the wedges just to make the extra pressure where needed.

When putting to much pressure on a joint you can actually damage the guitar. I´ve seen guitars with damaged sides, because the builder had used rubber strings and put to much pressure on when he glued the back on.

A good preparation is the thing.



Per Hallgren -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 12:05:24)

Do you glue the purfling and the bindings in separate operations? And if so, how do you glue a multilined purfling? Gluing all strips together in a form before installing on the guitar or holding the strips in place on the guitar with small needles? Since I glue everything in the same operation I have a stepped channel and in the case of many purfling strips, i.e broad purfling channel, as in some classicals, I would perhaps damage the taped binding on the opposite side if using rope without a jig.

And Anders, I think it is clear that the Pripps box is empty showing either how poor a swedish luthier is, or how late in the evening he is working...



Anders Eliasson -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 13:20:54)

Per

I glue bindings and purfling in one step. I also work a stepped chanel and I make my purflings gluing veneer together, cutting it out and bending it in my bending machine.
As always... Theres no "right" way. If the thing works its the right way. We all agree that strings are ( a lot) better than tape. Here in Spain, I´ve never seen jigs in use for gluing bindings. But I´ve seen a lot of free handers. Andrés Marvi has a good photo on his website gluing 2 bindings at the time with the guitar flying in his wise.

I like a cold beer in the workshop sometimes as well. Simon has a video of me drinking Alhambra (local beer) in the workshop. Maybe he´ll show it one day.

Un saludo
Anders



JBASHORUN -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 18:17:50)

Well I used plain old masking tape. It didn't come out 100% perfect, but it works fairly well. Apparently StewMac sell a specific type of tape just for binding jobs now:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Tape/Binding_Tape.html

Might try it on my next guitar...

Jb



r0bbie -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 20:22:36)

Perhaps you have seen this video but I was sort of stuned by the time it takes to glue the bindings. I wonder if they use wood or some sort of plastic. And he does not seem to worry about messing with some glue.

Verry strange..




TANúñez -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 20:25:02)

Jb, this "special" binding tape that StewMac sells is just low tack masking tape which you can get at any hardware store. I also use tape for my bindings. Haven't had any problems and it's easy. You do however, have to be sure the tape you use is not very aggressive as you can pull small fibers off the top and back when peeling the tape of.



stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 21:42:57)

Hi per, I had to look twice at your photo as you look a bit like me! (enc photo)
I like the jig method glueing one at a time , purflings and bindings all in one slot going all the way down. I have a few tools in the photo but have many more secretly put in the workshop! The tape I used to use I always got anoyed as it sometimes broke and couldnt give enough pressure at times. I LOVE the string method even though it chews up my hands somewhat after doing several guitars. I use hemp fibre ( I tried smoking it but didnt taste nice with the glue in it after using it ) (( dont Really smoke actually)) I have 4 jigs so I can swop between guitars and finish the last then move onto the first again.
Anders, I like your style. Looks good, and wedges are another one of my favorite things esp folding ones.
http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk



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stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 21:45:04)

my workshop!



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stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 21:47:15)

God, what a mess it looks, must have a sweep up. Heres one of the outside of my house/workshop..


http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk



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Jim Opfer -> RE: binding method (Mar. 29 2007 22:45:33)

It's great to read you luthiers rumble on about making guitars. Absolutely fantastic reading.
I find it amazing (and I see it is common to all your pictures) that you carve the heel perfectly yet the remainder of the neck is just a big block of wood? What happens if you make a mistake and take too much off or find there's a fault inside the wood having gone so far?



TANúñez -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 1:51:11)

Here's my lacquer room with a few guitars waiting for finish.



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stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 8:12:38)

is that really your lacquer room....

jim, a hairdresser in salisbury (uk) once said to me when I was having a haircut..' we can take it off but we cant put it back on again' I suggest guitar making is a similar experience! That blanca in the photo is destined for glasgow... all being well

stephen



Per Hallgren -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 8:33:32)

Stephen, very nice house and workshop! Sunny and warm compared to mine... I guess we Scandinavians always envy people living in more friendly climates. Not everyone can do what Anders did (and you), move south.



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 11:12:55)

quote:

I find it amazing (and I see it is common to all your pictures) that you carve the heel perfectly yet the remainder of the neck is just a big block of wood? What happens if you make a mistake and take too much off or find there's a fault inside the wood having gone so far?


You get pissed off.... And maybe you´ll have a problem with your client or your wallet[;)]
I had this exact problem when I made Simons guitar. The very last part of the work on the guitar. everything perfect and oups a hidden resin pocket.... It hurts but fortunately Simon understood that its part of the game when you work with wood. Its not perfect. It can be called 1A extra especial master whatever but it still is wood and not perfect.

Stephen, What is a foldable wedge?

Per I love your workshop. My dream is have a wooden workshop (maybe a little less snow[;)]) but it gets cold here as well: Winter 2006



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Per Hallgren -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 11:43:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Per I love your workshop. My dream is have a wooden workshop (maybe a little less snow[;)]) but it gets cold here as well: Winter 2006


Naah, I don't believe you. It is an overexposed black and white picture. In Spain it is always warmer, sunnier, the grass always greener...



Per Hallgren -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 11:52:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer

It's great to read you luthiers rumble on about making guitars. Absolutely fantastic reading.
I find it amazing (and I see it is common to all your pictures) that you carve the heel perfectly yet the remainder of the neck is just a big block of wood? What happens if you make a mistake and take too much off or find there's a fault inside the wood having gone so far?

A lot of the modern builders are moving to a separate neck, i.e. a neck joined to the body with a dovetail or even bolts. But there are still a lot of us who believe in the traditional spanish construction method where the neck is built into the body. As you say, there is a challenge in it, and even some risks, but then we save some time not going parachuting or mountain climbing. The biggest risk, as Anders mention, is that there is a hidden resin pocket or similar. As a skilled luthier you don't take too much off.[8D]



Arash -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 12:23:42)

Stephen , whats this ??



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JBASHORUN -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 14:57:23)

quote:

Jb, this "special" binding tape that StewMac sells is just low tack masking tape which you can get at any hardware store. I also use tape for my bindings. Haven't had any problems and it's easy. You do however, have to be sure the tape you use is not very aggressive as you can pull small fibers off the top and back when peeling the tape of.


Tom, apparently the StewMac tape is HIGH tack, NOT low tack. I think the idea is that there is extra adhesion to grip the surfaces and keep the tape firmly in place. Its also got an extra rigid backing, meaning that it stretches less than regular masking tape. But I haven't tried it, so I can't say if it works. I just remember seeing a DVD about Archtop guitar making, and the guy said the best thing to use was "filament tape"... basically a regular tape, but REINFORCED with filament strips for a firmer hold with less stretching...

Jb



TANúñez -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 15:12:14)

quote:

is that really your lacquer room....


No, the photo was meant as a joke. I figured if I'm building Conde style guitars, I need a factory [:D]



TANúñez -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 15:16:30)

quote:

Tom, apparently the StewMac tape is HIGH tack, NOT low tack. I think the idea is that there is extra adhesion to grip the surfaces and keep the tape firmly in place. Its also got an extra rigid backing, meaning that it stretches less than regular masking tape. But I haven't tried it, so I can't say if it works. I just remember seeing a DVD about Archtop guitar making, and the guy said the best thing to use was "filament tape"... basically a regular tape, but REINFORCED with filament strips for a firmer hold with less stretching...

Jb


Jb.

They must have upgraded to a better tape. I bought a roll a few years back and it wasn't great. This new stuff with the reinforced backing sounds good. As Stephen mentioned, regular tape often breaks at the bend due to the sharp unfinished edge of the binding if pulled too tight. If you get a roll of this tape, let me know how you like it.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 15:18:25)

quote:

The biggest risk, as Anders mention, is that there is a hidden resin pocket or similar. As a skilled luthier you don't take too much off.


Well if the client wants 22mm thick neck with rounded corners, you gotta take off what you gotta take off. I dont like this idea of letting the wood decide important things like setup. If there´s a hidden resin pocket in the neckwood.... Well, there´s a dark spot on the finished neck. Thats not the Luthiers fault and it doesnt make the guitar sound or play worse, nor does it make it weaker. I mean where´s the limit? We are (fortunately) not working plastic or metal but wood which is non perfect material.



stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 16:45:08)

quote: Stephen, What is a foldable wedge?

its just what you are using Anders, 2 wedges opposing each other, the two together make 2 paralelle (how DO you spell that)edges that pushed together move apart!!! folding wedges to be precise. You know what I mean !



stephen hill -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 16:49:45)

Bikhiyal, thats my outdoor tightbond glue storage container that I have a tube connected to and straight into the workshop. works great.....


actually its my 500ltr water tank. Water here in my little village is a problem, ie it hasnt rained properly for a LONG time. I fill it up from a pipe that comes down from a mountain spring higher up. The water is so clean I drink it all the time rather than buy bottled water, a bit like flushing your toilet with evian...



Jim Opfer -> RE: binding method (Mar. 30 2007 22:06:53)

quote:

That blanca in the photo is destined for glasgow... all being well

Didn't want to ask. Looking forward very much.



a_arnold -> RE: binding method (Apr. 5 2007 15:29:45)

I'm not a luthier (yet) but I visited Manual de la Chica's tiny little shop (Placeta de la Silleria 8, Granada) in 1967 and he was winding miles (well, it seemed like) of string around his guitars and then driving wedges under the string to tighten it when he put his guitars together.

Just a tidbit from the past.

Tony Arnold



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